Vaccine or not?

[evillawyer]

Good read

 

[AthensVol2007]

Some observations:

1) What you've written has nothing to do with post of Orangeslice13 to which you've replied. The reader is left with the impression that you're unable to rebut his assertion.

2) It's precisely because Orangeslice13 is vaccinated that he can say his concern is to protect others.

3) If the risk of ignoring mitigation measures (whether vaccination, masking, or social distancing) accrued only to those who chose to ignore them, there'd be no reason not to allow others to assume that risk and its consequences. What's missing from this consideration, however, is that 1) children under the age of twelve (some of whom are vulnerable to devastating complications from covid) are not yet eligible for vaccination, and 2) there is a non-negligible number of of immunocompromised persons who will not achieve immunity from the vaccine.

4) I'm very glad to read that you recognize the sanctity of human life from the moment of conception. As a prolife Christian, I've been disturbed by how many of those who profess to be prolife have betrayed in their sentiments concerning the wearing of masks and social-distancing the same misanthropic, atomistic, social-Darwinistic "morality" that has long been manifest among those who advocate for abortion. The person unwilling to wear a mask for his vulnerable neighbor is unlikely to acquit himself honorably as father or mother in a crisis pregnancy.

A) children are statically not at risk. Yes outliers and cases happen, but that doesn’t lead to statistical significance

B) the number of cases of infection where the line is “I wore masks religiously” leads many to the conclusion that masks don’t work. My SIL didn’t go to work, a grocery store, restaurant or church for over a year and wore a mask every time she went out, except in the house around immediate family and tested positive. I’ve not worn a mask 10x in 12 months, been tested and “exposed” on multiple occasions (including 3 days in a vehicle and living quarters with a colleague), never changed my lifestyle where able and have never tested positive.

C) if a person is immune-compromised and wears their mask, they’re safe regardless if I wear one or not; if masks work. If they’re immune-compromised and they themselves choose not to wear a mask in indoor public settings they’ve assumed a level of risk upon themselves and told the world that they’re ok with assuming that risk. So why should I voluntarily choose to wear one on their behalf?

D) Love thy neighbor as thyself is obviously our charge as Christian’s, and it doesn’t make it any more morally right, but I imagine I’m not alone in the world of Christendom of applying a higher standard of love/empathy/concern for ones family than we do to strangers/neighbors. Comparing a matter as intimate and personal as a pregnancy and surmising how one would handle that based on how well they mask is a reach. I’ve been through an early stage miscarriage (of an unplanned & “not ready for it” pregnancy) and can’t fathom how one could walk in and out of a clinic emotionless.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I think the information Hogg was talking about was reinfection rates for those who previously had Covid. The actual rates and severity of those who became reinfected would be good information to know.

I think the answer is “very damn few”
and I’m sure there’s political stuff behind why we have trouble locating that information. If it’s anywhere to be found at all

 

[Orangeslice13]

Do you have a link to their numbers in English? The website was in Hebrew and even using the translate function on the Google app it wasn’t always clear what I was looking at.

I think the app is in English.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Good read

You know all the ******** you push with the political angle doesn’t help at all.

 

[evillawyer]

You know all the ******** you push with the political angle doesn’t help at all.

Another one frustrated that he joined the death cult.

 

[AshG]

Another one frustrated that he joined the death cult.

StUpId RiNo!!!! Clinton must have some dirt on him ha ha ha!

 

[utvolpj]

Another one frustrated that he joined the death cult.

That's not why this was done. He wants to allow local districts to make their own decisions

"The local school districts should make the call, and they should have more options to make sure that their school is a safe environment during a very challenging time for education,” Hutchinson said during the press conference.

 

[hog88]

Jerusalem post is giving clean data out of Israel. It’s really bad news for those who took the oxford vaccine. Not great for phiser. The moderna seems to be holding up.
It just is what it is. You’re talking a chance either with or without vaccine. It’s pretty obvious that the vaccine is helping but if the unknown is too much for people to deal with then it’s their right to choose to remain unvaccinated

I went to the JP and can't find that information. When you get time could you point me to or link it.

Thanks.

 

[C-south]

Another one frustrated that he joined the death cult.

If you have to wear masks just say the vaccines don’t work.

 

[hog88]

It's not a running rate, but here's a focused study from earlier this year:

Reinfection Rates among Patients who Previously Tested Positive for COVID-19: a Retrospective Cohort Study - PubMed



And another from June that focuses on severe cases:

Study Finds COVID-19 Reinfection Rate Less Than 1% for Those with Severe Illness

Thanks.

 

[RockyTop85]

Probably worth saying, even if I’m not the best person to say it: being an ******* or judging people for not getting vaccinated is probably pushing a lot of people to feel the need to justify their decisions. Some of those people turn to make unsupported conclusions or repeat garbage that’s being put out there by people who are making money off the number of people who need to justify their decisions. The prevalence of this misinformation then causes judgy people to think everybody deciding not to get vaccinated did it because they can’t assess the risks and benefits of the vaccine. It also may be persuasive to some people on the fence.

We’re probably all better off pursuing a common set of facts rather than a uniform decision.

 

[evillawyer]

If you have to wear masks just say the vaccines don’t work.

If you have to have speed limits, just admit seat belts don't work.

 

[C-south]

If you have to have speed limits, just admit seat belts don't work.

My god. Your analogies are worse than huff’s memes.

 

[theFallGuy]

If you have to have speed limits, just admit seat belts don't work.

 

[DuckInAPen]

A) children are statically not at risk. Yes outliers and cases happen, but that doesn’t lead to statistical significance

B) the number of cases of infection where the line is “I wore masks religiously” leads many to the conclusion that masks don’t work. My SIL didn’t go to work, a grocery store, restaurant or church for over a year and wore a mask every time she went out, except in the house around immediate family and tested positive. I’ve not worn a mask 10x in 12 months, been tested and “exposed” on multiple occasions (including 3 days in a vehicle and living quarters with a colleague), never changed my lifestyle where able and have never tested positive.

C) if a person is immune-compromised and wears their mask, they’re safe regardless if I wear one or not; if masks work. If they’re immune-compromised and they themselves choose not to wear a mask in indoor public settings they’ve assumed a level of risk upon themselves and told the world that they’re ok with assuming that risk. So why should I voluntarily choose to wear one on their behalf?

D) Love thy neighbor as thyself is obviously our charge as Christian’s, and it doesn’t make it any more morally right, but I imagine I’m not alone in the world of Christendom of applying a higher standard of love/empathy/concern for ones family than we do to strangers/neighbors. Comparing a matter as intimate and personal as a pregnancy and surmising how one would handle that based on how well they mask is a reach. I’ve been through an early stage miscarriage (of an unplanned & “not ready for it” pregnancy) and can’t fathom how one could walk in and out of a clinic emotionless.

First of all, AthensVol2007, God rest your child's soul with the righteous in His kingdom! My deepest condolences on your loss. My wife and I grieve the loss of two ourselves.

In response to the other things you've written:

A) Compared to other risks to which we as a society are unwilling to subject our children, covid is by no means statistically insignificant (I suppose I'm more attuned to these risks than most because I've got a child whose medical condition puts him at great risk of serious harm if he contracts the delta variant that's circulating widely in our area).

B) Masks are much more effective in preventing us from spreading the virus to others than they are in preventing us from contracting the virus from others. The anecdotes you mention, then, should surprise no one. It remains true, however, that when all parties in an interaction are masked and distanced, the transmission of the virus is, statistically, greatly reduced.

C) It's unclear to me how you propose to reconcile the viewpoint you express under B about the efficacy of masking with the assertion that the immunocompromised are protected by their own mask.

D) I stand by what I've written -- that those who have not exercised virtue in small matters are unlikely to do so in the large -- as it corresponds both to my own experience and the testimony of Scripture (for instance, what the Lord says in the parable of the talents, what He says when His disciples fall asleep in the garden of Gethsemane, and what the Apostles James and John say in their epistles -- I'll have to add citations later, as I don't trust my memory sufficiently to attempt quotations now).

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I just don't comprehend the need to funnel people down the path of vaccination when there are other alternatives outside of just the vaccines that have shown to be just as effective. The removal of all other options that are available is the biggest misstep in all of this. You could have a certain portion of the population that are comfortable with the unknown vaccines using them and the others that feel comfortable with the HCQ/Ivermectin/other remedies using them and not have each side at each others throats.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

'For $1/Day'... Double-Blind Ivermectin Study Reveals COVID Patients Recover More Quickly, Are Less Infectious | ZeroHedge

 

[AM64]

I would have thought that having Covid already would eliminate the need for the vaccine. If I had already had Covid then I would not have taken the vaccine. I think numbers still support natural immunity is ideal. I can’t see how the vaccine would improve someone’s natural immunity and so far there’s no statistics to support vaccine in addition to natural immunity.
Having said that it’s obvious that nothing is 100% as my buddy died yesterday from Covid and he had it 6 months ago. He was unvaccinated and I don’t believe that the vaccine would have helped as he should have had natural immunity.

But again there’s no longer any reasonable debate as to what saves lives. The numbers are in.

Long ago I decided I absolutely hated all things like chemistry, biology, genetics, etc ... the stuff related to how living organisms work. However as an engineer, numbers, designed studies with controlled testing and analysis, and trends or events that trend are enticing. Makes me wonder if the immunity from vaccines is different from immunity among those who had covid - like if the immunity among those who had the first round of covid isn't as strong against the Delta variant. After all this is somewhat how evolution works - things morph so they aren't quite what they used to be as a protective measure, but again that's speculation and not something considering my bias against the study of living things that I'd even consider looking into.

 

[OHvol40]

Probably worth saying, even if I’m not the best person to say it: being an ******* or judging people for not getting vaccinated is probably pushing a lot of people to feel the need to justify their decisions. Some of those people turn to make unsupported conclusions or repeat garbage that’s being put out there by people who are making money off the number of people who need to justify their decisions. The prevalence of this misinformation then causes judgy people to think everybody deciding not to get vaccinated did it because they can’t assess the risks and benefits of the vaccine. It also may be persuasive to some people on the fence.

We’re probably all better off pursuing a common set of facts rather than a uniform decision.

It’s much simpler than that, and facts have nothing to do with it. It has been chosen as a “personal freedom” line in the sand by GOP leadership who have no actual platform so must use contrarian stances like antivaxing to keep the finger pointed elsewhere.

If you like expressing your personal freedom in such a way, why fall in line with antivaxers? That’s played out. I say get creative. Spend your remaining summer days eating raw chicken, throw some rusty nails on your trampoline, go drink some stagnant water… where have all the real men gone?

 

[AshG]

It’s much simpler than that, and facts have nothing to do with it. It has been chosen as a “personal freedom” line in the sand by GOP leadership who have no actual platform so must use contrarian stances like antivaxing to keep the finger pointed elsewhere.

Except now there are multiple GOP/conservative people of note who are now pushing vaccines and other non-lockdown mitigation measures. And they're being called traitors, RINOs, and any of a number of epithets and insults.

 

[AM64]

It's what the vaccine may do to you in a few years that's causing a lot of the hesitancy. Everyday, we see something about some drug or medical device that is generating a class action suit. Everything from talcum powder to hernia mesh seems to have problems. I remember several years ago, doctors prescribed fen-phen diet pills. Doctors claimed it was safe and all kinds of fat people, short on willpower, knocked the doors down to get the prescription. Later, it was discovered it damaged your heart valves...making them rattle like a '78 Ford 302. Older people are making the mental calculation that they will die of covid before something like those damaged valves, so they are getting vaccinated. Younger people are making a different calculation.

In the next year I'm probably going to be the recipient of an engineered material to repair an aneurysm in my ascending aorta and a new aortic valve. I got the first valve 20 years ago - open heart, stopped heart - all that good stuff; and the valve has exceeded expectations. In fact, it's possible that the enlarged ascending aorta is distorting the aortic valve so it's not sealing properly ... got a bevy of tests coming up. Chances of something going wrong are a simple fact of life, but there are times to be proactive. I can't tell you how many times during my career I despised that very word uttered by people without a clue because my job was diagnostics which by definition is a reactive effort. If nothing is wrong, you don't try to fix it; and if you knew something was going to fail, you'd have prevented it in the first place. The quickest way to "herd immunity" is to vaccinate - even a partially immune flock tend to stymie something trying to infect and kill them.

 

[AthensVol2007]

First of all, AthensVol2007, God rest your child's soul with the righteous in His kingdom! My deepest condolences on your loss. My wife and I grieve the loss of two ourselves.

In response to the other things you've written:

A) Compared to other risks to which we as a society are unwilling to subject our children, covid is by no means statistically insignificant (I suppose I'm more attuned to these risks than most because I've got a child whose medical condition puts him at great risk of serious harm if he contracts the delta variant that's circulating widely in our area).

B) Masks are much more effective in preventing us from spreading the virus to others than they are in preventing us from contracting the virus from others. The anecdotes you mention, then, should surprise no one. It remains true, however, that when all parties in an interaction are masked and distanced, the transmission of the virus is, statistically, greatly reduced.

C) It's unclear to me how you propose to reconcile the viewpoint you express under B about the efficacy of masking with the assertion that the immunocompromised are protected by their own mask.

D) I stand by what I've written -- that those who have not exercised virtue in small matters are unlikely to do so in the large -- as it corresponds both to my own experience and the testimony of Scripture (for instance, what the Lord says in the parable of the talents, what He says when His disciples fall asleep in the garden of Gethsemane, and what the Apostles James and John say in their epistles -- I'll have to add citations later, as I don't trust my memory sufficiently to attempt quotations now).

Explain to me how the same piece of cloth can keep something from going out but can’t at the same rate/level (whatever we want to call it) keep it from coming in? That to me is the biggest contradiction I’ve heard throughout this whole thing. “Experts” have even said this. I can’t and won’t disagree that two people masked is in all likelihood better than just one masked but it’s irrational thinking, to me at least, to think that the cloth that will limit the particles from exiting and traveling 6 ft or less to the next person, can’t have the EXACT same efficacy on coming in.

So you’re of the belief that if you’re infected and wear a mask and I don’t, that the chances of you infecting me are less than me infecting you if I’m infected without a mask but you are wearing a mask? If the mask can limit 75% of the airborne particles, for example, going out why won’t the same mask limit incoming particles by 75% on the other side?

How do the statistics/case #’s support that spread is reduced/masks are efficacious? Alabama repeatedly set case, hospitalization and death records when we had a state mask mandate in place. The average known infection rate is between 10-12% in every state (save for Hawaii). Heavily populated states like NY and MI who had extreme mask mandates (MI’s was lifted at the end of June) didn’t fair any better than TX and FL who were conservative to non-existent with mask mandates with similar to larger populations. The least populated and second least densely populated state of Wyoming, with a mask mandate, had an equivalent infection rate as NJ, the most densely populated state. North Dakota (4th least dense state) had the same infection rate as Rhode Island (2nd most dense state) and hit their roughest months during their 3 month mask mandate. The gunslinger mentality of DeSantis, when it comes to masks, has to date (including the present surge) resulted in less death per capita and a lower CFR% than NY, MI & IL.

 

[AM64]

Jerusalem post is giving clean data out of Israel. It’s really bad news for those who took the oxford vaccine. Not great for phiser. The moderna seems to be holding up.
It just is what it is. You’re talking a chance either with or without vaccine. It’s pretty obvious that the vaccine is helping but if the unknown is too much for people to deal with then it’s their right to choose to remain unvaccinated

Which is another thought ... why not booster vaccine from a different manufacturer - one that works a bit differently?

 

[AM64]

Very rational to consider long term effects of any medical product received and it’s hard to argue against uncertainty. You bring up good points with previous recalled medication. While there are many medications taken off the market there has never been a vaccine with proven side effects seen more than a year out of receiving it resulting in it being stopped. Meaning as was the case of the 1976 swine flu vaccine or the recent dengue vaccine or the inactivated polio vaccine in the 1950s that had serious adverse events it was demonstrated fairly quickly these vaccines caused harm. While mrna vaccines are new there is still 10+ years of clinical trials with thousands of people receiving this technology without any noted delayed adverse events. But can we say for certain in the future there won’t be some unknown thing that pops up with this vaccine? No. Am I confident that me using my iPhone to respond to this post won’t eventually cause me cancer? Well I trust that years of research on radiation emitted from cell phones has demonstrated risk is negligible but are there long term studies that prove it? No but I trust the advancement of science which has led to the betterment of mankind telling me the risk of cancer with this iPhone is nonexistent. Same way I trust these vaccines.

Bingo, Hence the line from "The Boxer". People tend to pick which which things to be disturbed by and sometimes ignore what really can hurt them.

Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest