Vaccine or not?

[Rasputin_Vol]

You're ridiculous. You know that's not what I said or meant because you had to edit the quote to take off the answer to your question.

Then WTF do you mean when you say:

Who said we're a free society? You're coerced to pay taxes. To sign up for the draft. To follow the laws other people wrote. You're never going to be completely free from all coercion or force in any society.* But the hill we're choosing to die on (no pun intended) is a vaccine during a pandemic. I don't get it.

You're ridiculous. You know that's not what I said or meant because you had to edit the quote to take off the answer to your question.

What you say here is nullified by the first half of your post.

*note for pj that I'm not advocating for any sort of additional force or coercion, including vaccine mandates

So what am I supposed to assume from this post? That you are perfectly ok with the current vaccine mandates but don't want to go any further? Even if that is what you are saying, you still don't see that these mandates are going too far right now.

 

[RockyTop85]

That’s not what I said. Biden has no direct power over the citizens so he’s trying to exert power via OSHA. Abbott has actual direct power over the citizens of his state… and the government entities operating within his state.

So if Abbott or the Texas legislature tells your employer that they can’t prohibit you from wearing your assless chaps at work on Wednesdays, then your co-workers just have to avert their eyes, that’s not overreach, he has authority over them?

But mandating no shoes, no shirt, no service in restaurants would be overreach because the federal Government doesn’t have authority over people?

 

[hog88]

This is where it gets sticky for me.

What does a business typically have to do change the terms of employment? And that's not employment status. Not saying they cant be fired. I just see issues with a business suddenly saying employees get paid less, or have to work longer hours for same pay.

Depends on state laws. In TN as long as there is no harassment, discrimination based on protected class or contract violations terms of employment can be changed at any time.

 

[LouderVol]

Ok you get a debate point on the technicality here. Abbott’s EO limits any state government entity from exerting power over private companies. However it also does in fact expand limitations related to employer discrimination against employees such as race, religion, etc…

Except it's not. His EO actually specifically defines the state governments power over private companies. He is saying the state governments stance is no corporation can mandate.

That's not, no government mandate. They are mandating no other mandates.

 

[NorthDallas40]

So if Abbott or the Texas legislature tells your employer that they can’t prohibit you from wearing your assless chaps at work on Wednesdays, then your co-workers just have to avert their eyes, that’s not overreach, he has authority over them?

But mandating no shoes, no shirt, no service in restaurants is overreach because the federal Government doesn’t have authority over people?

Do you still beat your wife?

Is there assless chap episode epidemic where you are forcing this?

I’d call an assless chap mandate bad legislation… just like the abortion legislation. Both are with the state house’s purview until the judicial deems them unconstitutional

 

[RockyTop85]

Do you still beat your wife?

Is there assless chap episode epidemic where you are forcing this?

I’d call an assless chap mandate bar legislation… just like the abortion legislation. Both are with the state house’s purview until the judicial deems them unconstitutional

When did the judiciary deem federal workplace safety standards unconstitutional?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Except it's not. His EO actually specifically defines the state governments power over private companies. He is saying the state governments stance is no corporation can mandate.

That's not, no government mandate. They are mandating no other mandates.

Isn’t that what I said in the post you replied to?

 

[NorthDallas40]

When did the judiciary deem federal workplace safety standards unconstitutional?

Nice non sequitur?

 

[RockyTop85]

Nice non sequitur?

No, “do you still beat your wife” was a non-sequitur (and the second time you’ve shown you don’t understand what that means, recently).

Your standard for overreach doesn’t apply to either action.

 

[LouderVol]

When did the judiciary deem federal workplace safety standards unconstitutional?

Has OSHA required vaccines before?

I know there are standards for people who work in the labs that deal with biohazards. But I havent seen other requirements that apply as a general standard of safety anywhere close to this vaccine requirement.

And the 100 person thing is clearly just a stepping stone/foot in the door thing, and not based on any type of science or safety regulation.

 

[hog88]

Has OSHA required vaccines before?

I know there are standards for people who work in the labs that deal with biohazards. But I havent seen other requirements that apply as a general standard of safety anywhere close to this vaccine requirement.

And the 100 person thing is clearly just a stepping stone/foot in the door thing, and not based on any type of science or safety regulation.

The 100 employee mark for this mandate to apply is where I think it gets tossed by the 1st court it goes in front of. There is no other OSHA safety regulation that takes into account company size.

 

[NorthDallas40]

No, “do you still beat your wife” was a non-sequitur (and the second time you’ve shown you don’t understand what that means, recently).

Your standard for overreach doesn’t apply to either action.

Do you beat your wife is an example of a loaded question which is what you did when I replied that. A non sequitur is when a stupid conclusion is drawn from the data presented which is what you did with the workplace safety comments. I’ll stand pat on my examples of what is and what isn’t over reach. And thanks for the beautiful examples of your horrible ass reading comprehension

 

[RockyTop85]

Has OSHA required vaccines before?

I know there are standards for people who work in the labs that deal with biohazards. But I havent seen other requirements that apply as a general standard of safety anywhere close to this vaccine requirement.

And the 100 person thing is clearly just a stepping stone/foot in the door thing, and not based on any type of science or safety regulation.

I have no idea. If “it’s legal until a court says it’s illegal” is his standard, that doesn’t matter.

 

[NorthDallas40]

The 100 employee mark for this mandate to apply is where I think it gets tossed by the 1st court it goes in front of. There is no other OSHA safety regulation that takes into account company size.

There are no actual OSHA guidelines yet. None. Zero. Go to the OSHA webpage. Biden’s EO directed OSHA to make some guidelines and do his bidding. Thus far they haven’t published anything I’m aware of.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I have no idea. If “it’s legal until a court says it’s illegal” is his standard, that doesn’t matter.

That’s the exact same standard you’ve used to defend other cases. It’s the law of the land until the judicial says it isn’t I believe was your phraseology.

 

[hog88]

There are no actual OSHA guidelines yet. None. Zero. Go to the OSHA webpage. Biden’s EO directed OSHA to make some guidelines and do his bidding. Thus far they haven’t published anything I’m aware of.

Correct OSHA has not issued any guidelines and the mandate has not taken effect, the 100 employee mark is the most likely holdup. OSHA lawyers working overtime to figure out how to do that.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Correct OSHA has not issued any guidelines and the mandate has not taken effect, the 100 employee mark is the most likely holdup. OSHA lawyers working overtime to figure out how to do that.

I’d guess they are working to comply yes. Thinking back to the EO I believe the vax compliance mandate was Jan 1. That is the timeline my ******* company has been pushing on employees while in parallel the Texas state house is working on Montana style legislation. It’s a race to the bottom prompted by the idiot in chief

 

[RockyTop85]

That’s the exact same standard you’ve used to defend other cases. It’s the law of the land until the judicial says it isn’t I believe was your phraseology.

That’s a correct statement, assuming “the judicial” is some sort of ham handed slang for the judicial branch. That has nothing to do with defending anything and has nothing to do with whether you’re applying that standard inconsistently, which you are.

 

[NorthDallas40]

That’s a correct statement, assuming “the judicial” is some sort of ham handed slang for the judicial branch. That has nothing to do with defending anything and has nothing to do with whether you’re applying that standard inconsistently, which you are.

LMFAO yeah sure.

 

[RockyTop85]

LMFAO yeah sure.

So how is the vaccine mandate overreach if no court has said that it’s unconstitutional?

Congress’s authority to regulate interstate commerce was delegated to OSHA in such a way as to allow them to issue these types of standards. They have that authority. So do you now support the vaccine mandate?

 

[LouderVol]

I have no idea. If “it’s legal until a court says it’s illegal” is his standard, that doesn’t matter.

I have clearly expressed disagreement with ND40s stance on this matter.

I just think if you are going to attack Joe's mandate/OSHA there are better ways to do it. .

 

[LouderVol]

So how is the vaccine mandate overreach if no court has said that it’s unconstitutional?

Congress’s authority to regulate interstate commerce was delegated to OSHA in such a way as to allow them to issue these types of standards. They have that authority. So do you now support the vaccine mandate?

Constitutionality doesnt determine overreach.

And interstate commerce has not been specified at all in this mandate or the proposed OSHA guidelines.

 

[RockyTop85]

I have clearly expressed disagreement with ND40s stance on this matter.

I just think if you are going to attack Joe's mandate/OSHA there are better ways to do it. .

I understand you don’t agree with him. I don’t know the answer to your question. Since no mandate actually exists, I haven’t bothered to look past some other people’s hypothetical articles about how it might fare in court.

The congressional authority to regulate interstate commerce is very broad. The delegation of that authority to OSHA is also broad. The non-delegation doctrine has been non-existent in US jurisprudence.

I think it’s more likely the mandate is denied on legal grounds for not meeting the ETS requirements than constitutional reasons.

None of that is entirely original thought. I’ve posted the articles, ITT.

 

[NorthDallas40]

So how is the vaccine mandate overreach if no court has said that it’s unconstitutional?

Congress’s authority to regulate interstate commerce was delegated to OSHA in such a way as to allow them to issue these types of standards. They have that authority. So do you now support the vaccine mandate?

I’ve answered it several times. Biden has ZERO direct authority over individuals however state governors do have based on their vested powers in each state constitution. Abbott has that power. OSHA was not working on any such legislation to impact individuals prior to the idiots EO and still haven’t published the relevant guidelines.

I recognize the power OSHA has based on the commerce clause… just as I recognize the power vested in the governor’s executive office.

Do you have an example of any case by OSHA contesting Montana’s anti vax mandate legislation? No? There you have your answer.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Constitutionality doesnt determine overreach.

And interstate commerce has not been specified at all in this mandate or the proposed OSHA guidelines.

I think the commerce clause is the goto statement for the Feds to push their policies down on the states. It’s how NFA1934 was enacted.