Vaccine or not?

#15,776
#15,776
AshG said:
If we add up all the potential deaths from the vaccinations, we still sit at well below a very tight threshold of acceptable negative outcomes.

In examining background information to inform my reply to this post, I came across the below explanation. It is worth reading in toto.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2446471/#!po=16.6667

An excerpt of note:

In some cases, preliminary analysis of adverse event rates may suggest an apparent risk, although ultimately that risk could be dismissed as artifactual. For example, preliminary review of data from the Vaccine Adverse Event Report System showed that higher rates of serious adverse events were reported for children who received a specific brand of recombinant hepatitis B vaccine; subsequent analysis from a retrospective cohort study showed that there was no difference in rates of adverse events for the 2 vaccines.22 Signals from spontaneous reporting therefore need to be interpreted very cautiously.
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If we take out all the deaths “from Covid” of anyone over 80 slated to die within a year anyway, what’s the threshold of a negative outcome from Covid?
 
#15,779
#15,779
Rasputin_Vol said:
It is getting harder and harder to be civil disobedient when the govt and tech companies are working together. Lok at how they went after Parlor.
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I'm civilly disobedient about the hundreds of thousands of wrongly incarcerated non-violent drug offenders. Parler isn't a cause worth using the .gov to violate rights. I have much bigger priorities and I'm not going to compromise my principles for the sake of Parler.
 
#15,780
#15,780
n_huffhines said:
Libertarianism isn't about being "OK" with behavior. It's about protecting rights, and as long as a business isn't violating someone's rights, you can't use the government to violate theirs. That's it. Don't like what twitter's doing? You don't have to be OK with them. Delete it off your phone. Tell other people why they suck. Organize a protest. Organize a social media campaign against them. Just don't use the government to violate rights.
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Libertarians believe individual rights 1st over everything, they also don't agree with business joining together to violate a persons rights..have we not seen big tech do this exact thing with freedom of speech...so much so that competition of other apps was shutdown by Google,apple to even create..so a group of businesses are stifling free speech and suppressing the ability for competition....there needs to be a balance other wise your trading 1 corruption for another using a different title...then there is the argument that a buisness is not an individual...and by allowing a buisness indvidual rights, you give a buisness owner the right to violate right of the employeed which 1st and foremost should be protected...to me Libertarianism is trying but failing to see all angles, but those who follow it can separate themselves fro. The other politcal parties and talk like they have the answers whe. They dont
 
#15,782
#15,782
ButchPlz said:
Communist for the people guy? No. But I see firsthand the disgusting intersection between businesses and government. A "free market" and pure capitalism are a pipe dream just like communism is. At the end of the day, whether you are ruled by a collection of businesses or a collection of legislative bodies does not matter- you are still ruled.

Libertarianism is pure farce because, like socialism and communism, it completely ignores the reality of human nature.
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Get the government out of making policy decisions for businesses and there will always be some that buck the trend. Spend your money there.
 
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#15,783
#15,783
whodeycin85 said:
Libertarians believe individual rights 1st over everything, they also don't agree with business joining together to violate a persons rights..have we not seen big tech do this exact thing with freedom of speech...so much so that competition of other apps was shutdown by Google,apple to even create..so a group of businesses are stifling free speech and suppressing the ability for competition....there needs to be a balance other wise your trading 1 corruption for another using a different title...then there is the argument that a buisness is not an individual...and by allowing a buisness indvidual rights, you give a buisness owner the right to violate right of the employeed which 1st and foremost should be protected...to me Libertarianism is trying but failing to see all angles, but those who follow it can separate themselves fro. The other politcal parties and talk like they have the answers whe. They dont
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Monopolies come and go. Laws that are created to "protect" us from businesses come and stay. Forever. And ever. And they're almost always less effective than intended or even counterproductive, and often violate rights.
 
#15,784
#15,784
mad4vols said:
Even Donald Trump is tired of the antivaxers.
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*crickets* from the antivaxxer trump nut huggers.

f8928293e337d683ed474b0841854256.jpg
 
#15,785
#15,785
Rasputin_Vol said:
This is a very complicated set of issues that we have been introduced to over the last 20 months that really do challenge a lot of conservative beliefs. If it was as simple as a clearly demarcated distinction between govt and the private sector, I think conventional wisdom about how to handle govt is correct.

But when we are living in a fascist/corporatist/cartelist society where you either have govt admitting to working with these larger companies... it is time to step back and start having serious conversations about what we should do to protect individual liberties.


Ayn Rand?
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You protect individual liberties by electing state officials that will tell the federal govt to piss off, not ones that enact the type of tyranny you agree with.
 
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#15,786
#15,786
n_huffhines said:
Businesses come and go. Laws that are created to "protect" us from businesses come and stay. Forever. And ever. And they're almost always less effective than intended or even counterproductive.
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Not all buisness, big ones rebrand, join others under investment company....thats why there needs to be a checks and balances system....no buisness should be able to discrimination against a worker for any reason....
 
#15,787
#15,787
whodeycin85 said:
So wait....your not ok with government stepping on an individuals rights...but your ok with a group of buisnesses (which we have seen"big tech") doing the same as long as its not called government??? Either way its the same...individuals rights are lost whether by .gov or buisness collusion...
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Govt and business shouldn't be colluding. But at least in the private sector you still a choice. Facebook isn't going to come bust through your door if you cancel your account.
 
#15,789
#15,789
0nelilreb said:
Terrible example .
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This is how you show a form of argument is poor. You keep the form, substitute in new terms, and show that people aren't willing to accept the new conclusion generated by the same argument form using the substituted terms. If that's the case, it show that something is missing from the original argument.

There are plenty of things that are "the right thing to do." Some can be compelled by law/mandate, others can't. But you can't argue, categorically, that government can never mandate or require you to do the right thing. There are loads of laws that we all rightfully accept requiring you to do "the right thing." So the real work is explaining why getting vaccinated falls into the category of things that came be mandated by government. And Shapiro simply failed to articulate an argument for that.
 
#15,790
#15,790
whodeycin85 said:
Not all buisness, big ones rebrand, join others under investment company....thats why there needs to be a checks and balances system....no buisness should be able to discrimination against a worker for any reason....
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Businesses that maintain large market power for more than 2 decades are extremely rare. Some companies are successful for sustained periods, but there are basically none that maintain monopoly power.

No discrimination for any reason???
 
#15,792
#15,792
evillawyer said:
This is how you show a form of argument is poor. You keep the form, substitute in new terms, and show that people aren't willing to accept the new conclusion generated by the same argument form using the substituted terms. If that's the case, it show that something is missing from the original argument.

There are plenty of things that are "the right thing to do." Some can be compelled by law/mandate, others can't. But you can't argue, categorically, that government can never mandate or require you to do the right thing. There are loads of laws that we all rightfully accept requiring you to do "the right thing." So the real work is explaining why getting vaccinated falls into the category of things that came be mandated by government. And Shapiro simply failed to articulate an argument for that.
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See that’s a much better argument , but I disagree he is arguing that a government should not have the right to force you to put things into body if you chose not to have them . It’s hard for me to accept the premise that the government should not have the right to tell you that you can’t get an abortion but they can force you by way of coercion , fines or stigma to take a chemical into your body that you choose not to . Before we go down the bit it’s for society sake , you still pass Covid to people vaxxed or unvaxxed . I also have yet to see an article as I’ve pointed out every time Mad posts an article about hospitals being overran with Covid patients that all the articles include a short staff issue that was going on before the pandemic.
 
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#15,793
#15,793
n_huffhines said:
I'm civilly disobedient about the hundreds of thousands of wrongly incarcerated non-violent drug offenders. Parler isn't a cause worth using the .gov to violate rights. I have much bigger priorities and I'm not going to compromise my principles for the sake of Parler.
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I'm using them as an example of how the big tech companies and govt were able to shut them down this past January/February. I wasn't rallying behind "a cause". WTF
 
#15,798
#15,798
n_huffhines said:
Businesses that maintain large market power for more than 2 decades are extremely rare. Some companies are successful for sustained periods, but there are basically none that maintain monopoly power.

No discrimination for any reason???
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If a person can do the job, then the only things that should matter is job performace.......
We have just recently see business collusion come to light, its been in the background before with investment groups...
 
#15,799
#15,799
hog88 said:
Govt and business shouldn't be colluding. But at least in the private sector you still a choice. Facebook isn't going to come bust through your door if you cancel your account.
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Until they form a cartel.

How many cellphone service providers are there in this country?
How many cable/internet providers?
How many automakers?

You look in just about every sector (not all... not all), and you see a handful of big whales driving the sector. Our anti-trust laws suck/non-existent.
 
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#15,800
#15,800
Rasputin_Vol said:
Until they form a cartel.

How many cellphone service providers are there in this country?
How many cable/internet providers?
How many automakers?

You look in just about every sector (not all... not all), and you see a handful of big whales driving the sector. Our anti-trust laws suck/non-existent.
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My favorite is that there are essentially six companies that own the mainstream media market here in the US (including most American newspapers, local TV stations, etc.). This is because Bill Clinton removed the regulations to prevent that from happening (yay, less regulation, right libertarians!?!).

Then when you go look at the leadership structure of those media companies... It's a revolving door of incest between government and corporation, with these folks alternating between government appointments and their seats on media boards.
 
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