Vaccine or not?

[kiddiedoc]

I can't imagine this not seeming a reasonable POV.

See above

 

[82_VOL_83]

At this point, the only reason I can come up with for a person to think we should not screen for heart issues is the fear of being proven wrong and the guilt that could be associated.

No one is saying don't screen. The issue is immediately jumping to IT'S THE VAX before knowing anything.

 

[SamRebel35]

No, it isn't an evil question but it is disingenuous to ask it in this case. The same way a head on collision causing death doesn't qualify to ask that question. The issue for Damar's situation, is what will the NFL mandate now about chest protection? Lacrosse at the High School and College level mandate chest plates whereas they used to only require upper shoulder protection.

The issue is that we can look at the data and see that head on collision car accidents have a very high fatality rate. Making a routine tackle of a wide receiver where his shoulder pad hits your chest does not have a very high fatality rate. In fact, prior to last night, in the NFL, it was zero. Contrast that with 66 young professional athletes dying suddenly from heart issues in one single year. You're asking us to ignore a very rare occurrence in favor of an even more rare occurrence because of some mythical "bad form" argument.

 

[kiddiedoc]

They probably won't from massive blunt force trauma but with something like a lacrosse ball they do. The Lax protection is from a 100+ mph shot vs. a 200 lb. defense man putting you on your ass.

I will provide resources.

From UpToDate:

Surprisingly, commercially available chest wall protectors have not been shown to effectively prevent commotio cordis, both in the clinical arena and in laboratory animal studies [3,22,27,28]. Many of the commotio cordis victims reported to the National Commotio Cordis Registry were wearing protective equipment at the time of their event [3].

Weinstock J, Maron BJ, Song C, et al. Failure of commercially available chest wall protectors to prevent sudden cardiac death induced by chest wall blows in an experimental model of commotio cordis. Pediatrics 2006; 117:e656.

Drewniak EI, Spenciner DB, Crisco JJ. Mechanical properties of chest protectors and the likelihood of ventricular fibrillation due to commotio cordis. J Appl Biomech 2007; 23:282.

 

[kiddiedoc]

They probably won't from massive blunt force trauma but with something like a lacrosse ball they do. The Lax protection is from a 100+ mph shot vs. a 200 lb. defense man putting you on your ass.

CC is not caused by massive blunt force trauma

 

[NashVol11]

This! Why is it the first thing that comes up is the Vax for everything?

Anti vaxxers really want their “told you so” moment

 

[82_VOL_83]

The issue is that we can look at the data and see that head on collision car accidents have a very high fatality rate. Making a routine tackle of a wide receiver where his shoulder pad hits your chest does not have a very high fatality rate. In fact, prior to last night, in the NFL, it was zero. Contrast that with 66 young professional athletes dying suddenly from heart issues in one single year. You're asking us to ignore a very rare occurrence in favor of an even more rare occurrence because of some mythical "bad form" argument.

In ALL of football, this is the first instance? Gonna need a link for that.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

We can explain away many of the examples. But the number of professional athletes who have died from heart problems recently is absolutely staggering. You can't just wave your hands and dismiss 66 dead professional athletes. Here's a database of athletes who all have had some form of sudden heart issues. You can filter by outcome and level of athlete. If you filter "pro" with an outcome of "death" there are 66 in one single year. That's outrageous and even more outrageous that you would chastise someone for pointing it out.

Airtable | Everyone's app platform

According to FIFA, there were 617 sudden cardiac deaths from 2014-2018....

 

[82_VOL_83]

CC is not caused by massive blunt force trauma

You're right, it was the VAX. Sorry I even offered an alternate view.

P.S.: CC existed LONG before Covid.

 

[utvolpj]

Your concern and disdain should be directed at the institutions and govts that made us have to have these discussions in the first place... not at the people questioning why young people are passing out and dying. Those guys made the vaccine a divisive and toxic subject. Had it not been for their antics, we wouldn't be here right now.

It has been for years and years. There are likely tens of thousands of examples from me in this very forum. I've said the same about the vax but now I'm wrong because I don't look to it first in every death of a young person?

I actually click thru very few questionable links on this board but it seems the ones I do click either have very bad headline writers or are intentionally misleading to suit an agenda. Many just replace known facts with an innocent question mark. All sides need to be better in this discussion

 

[kiddiedoc]

More info on CC mechanism:

Sixteen swine received 144 impacts. The flat object did not cause VF (P = .01 compared with the two spherical objects), nonsustained VF, ST elevation, or bundle branch block. The smaller diameter sphere caused VF in nine of 48 impacts (19%), and the larger diameter sphere caused VF in five of 48 impacts (10%; P = .25). The smaller diameter sphere was associated with a greater increase in left ventricular pressure (P<.0001 and P = .001 compared with larger sphere only) and a higher likelihood of ST segment elevations (P<.001 and P = .08 compared with larger sphere only) and bundle branch block (Fisher's exact P = .008, and Fisher's exact P = .18 compared with larger sphere only).

Kalin J, Madias C, Alsheikh-Ali AA, Link MS. Reduced diameter spheres increases the risk of chest blow-induced ventricular fibrillation (commotio cordis). Heart Rhythm 2011; 8:1578.

 

[kiddiedoc]

You're right, it was the VAX. Sorry I even offered an alternate view.

P.S.: CC existed LONG before Covid.

I explicitly stated that the vaccine did not likely CAUSE what happened. Read.

 

[82_VOL_83]

More info on CC mechanism:



Kalin J, Madias C, Alsheikh-Ali AA, Link MS. Reduced diameter spheres increases the risk of chest blow-induced ventricular fibrillation (commotio cordis). Heart Rhythm 2011; 8:1578.

How big are the spheres?

 

[kiddiedoc]

Anti vaxxers really want their “told you so” moment

And if you're wrong? Do we need to see another case on TV? Will that cause you to at least ask if we should consider alternative views and screen athletes?

 

[SamRebel35]

In ALL of football, this is the first instance? Gonna need a link for that.

I said NFL. You know, the place with the 0.001% most well conditioned athletes on planet Earth. Pretty easy to google it. There has never been someone die suddenly from an impact to the chest in the NFL. There was a guy that died on the field in the 70's from a blood clot. That's the only time any players has died in an NFL game.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I explicitly stated that the vaccine did not likely CAUSE what happened. Read.

I read, yet you continue to defend those going to the VAX as the primary cause. Like I said, you are right Mr. Mod, I'm wrong. Let it go.

 

[kiddiedoc]

How big are the spheres?

" two different spherical shapes (72 mm diameter, equivalent to a baseball; 42 mm diameter, equivalent to a golf ball) and a flat round object 72 mm in diameter. "

 

[kiddiedoc]

I read, yet you continue to defend those going to the VAX as the primary cause. Like I said, you are right Mr. Mod, I'm wrong. Let it go.

I haven't defended anybody, and I don't post questionable stories blaming the vaccine.

A player died on the field.

Screen.

 

[utvolpj]

Anti vaxxers really want their “told you so” moment

The vax should have had very limited use. The fact it's still being pushed for everyone even with the mounds of data is one of our biggest failures in this pandemic. Its use should be limited and targeted

The "I told you so" is in the data

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Kalin J, Madias C, Alsheikh-Ali AA, Link MS. Reduced diameter spheres increases the risk of chest blow-induced ventricular fibrillation (commotio cordis). Heart Rhythm 2011; 8:1578.

Like a shoulder pad...

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

The vax should have had very limited use. The fact it's still being pushed for everyone even with the mounds of data is one of our biggest failures in this pandemic. Its use should be limited and targeted

The "I told you so" is in the data

Agree, the data has not and does not support giving the vax to healthy people under the age of 45-50, especially now with weakened strains.....

One of the biggest travesties in the past 3 years was the Biden Administration pushing a mandate that was contrary to this data...

 

[SamRebel35]

According to FIFA, there were 617 sudden cardiac deaths from 2014-2018....

That's a FIFA study, but it isn't a study of professional athletes. Their denominator was 260 million people of all ages who play organized soccer.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

That's a FIFA study, but it isn't a study of professional athletes. Their denominator was 260 million people of all ages who play organized soccer.

Your "study" includes people who died of seizures, drug overdoses, cardiac issues diagnosed before COVID. It includes "athletes" such as police officers, motorcyclists, beer league players, ballroom dancers, military officers, firefighters, 52 year olds, 45 year olds. Essentially your denominator was evert person that has ever played a sport or performed an athletic event that died suddenly.

For example, Pedro Feliciano died of a heart issue. He was diagnosed with it in 2013.

Demarcus Thomas died from seizures. He dealt with them for years.

 

[Jxn Vol]

The cloud hovering over all this is directly caused by pushing a shot with no long term safety data.

Did the shot cause it? Maybe. Maybe not. But since the people are test subjects then the question is warranted.

The shots should have never been mandated. Especially in young, healthy athletes.

This should be common sense basic stuff. COVID’s main byproduct is it made folks that should know better forget their training.

 

[VolinWayne]

Sorry I thought he was quoting vax death guy instead of kd.

However, trying to tie the vax into what happened seems a huge stretch and in worse form than skip Bayless

If I am correct in assuming that comment was directed at me I challenge you to find multiple posts where I specifically blamed the jab and it ended up definitely being something completely different thay caused the death.(I believe I made a comment when somebody died suddenly and it was actually a suicide??) And just the typical generic "fact check" job won't suffice. Most of the examples I have provided were in completely healthy young adults and in most cases it was known that they had also taken the vaccine.

In regards to KD, he never even mentioned the tradgedy that happened last night. I was simply replying to his post where he said it would be a good idea for all athletes to have a full cardiac evaluation done and I was agreeing with his statement. I purposely did not mention the vaccine because at this point we do not know if that played a part leading up to what happened yesterday. One thing we all do know is that a known side affect to the vaccine is myocarditis. To completely turn a blind eye and not be the least bit inquisitive about the sudden increase in "sudden deaths" in completely healthy adults is pretty foolish.

According to world renowned MD Peter McCulough (one of the many doctors who got sensored by twitter)

From January 2021 to current, 1598 athletes suffered cardiac arrest, 1101 of which with deadly outcome.

In a 38-years timespan (1966-2004), 1101 athletes under the age of 35 died (~29/years) due to various heart-related conditions.

-50% of whom had congenital anatomical heart disease and cardiomyopathies

-10% had atherosclerotic heart disease with early onset