War in Ukraine

#3,126
#3,126
Vol737 said:
Man, if you can’t admit that Biden F’d up a withdrawal, that’s your problem. I’ve always maintained we should have blown the hell out of Al Quaeda, the Taliban, nailed Bin Laden and gtfo. We should NEVER nation build. So yeah, I hold W accountable too. Already said what I wished Obama would have done. Charlie Wilson said it best, “In the end, we (Biden - this time) f****d up the end game.” Damn right I blame him for that cluster of a withdrawal. Most everyone does.
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Yeah, USA had success nation-building with Germany, Italy, and Japan after WW2 (and most of Western Europe) but the circumstances were very different in every instance compared to all of the nation-building we have done since then. All of those countries were tired from war and were just looking to survive and rebuild. Overall nation-building doesn't work. You can occupy countries successfully but you would have to resort to major human right violations/total disregard to human life to win.

For example, an occupying force could have controlled Iraq or Afghanistan if they forced the local population to convert to their religion, change language, etc. or face execution/slavery. This is why civilizations like the Mongols, Ottomans, and Romans were able to build massive empires based on occupation of enemy lands (even distant lands) but countries today have little hope of doing that.
 
#3,127
#3,127
volbound1700 said:
Yeah, USA had success nation-building with Germany, Italy, and Japan after WW2 (and most of Western Europe) but the circumstances were very different in every instance compared to all of the nation-building we have done since then. All of those countries were tired from war and were just looking to survive and rebuild. Overall nation-building doesn't work. You can occupy countries successfully but you would have to resort to major human right violations/total disregard to human life to win.

For example, an occupying force could have controlled Iraq or Afghanistan if they forced the local population to convert to their religion, change language, etc. or face execution/slavery. This is why civilizations like the Mongols, Ottomans, and Romans were able to build massive empires based on occupation of enemy lands (even distant lands) but countries today have little hope of doing that.
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The biggest difference in nation building in Japan/Germany vs Iraq and Afghanistan is the differences in the citizenry of the countries. Germany/Japan didn't have a population of mostly illiterate barbarians wanting to live in the 12th century.
 
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#3,128
#3,128
hog88 said:
The biggest difference in nation building in Japan/Germany vs Iraq and Afghanistan is the differences in the citizenry of the countries. Germany/Japan didn't have a population of mostly illiterate barbarians wanting to live in the 12th century.
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The only thing nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan have done is giving those barbarians the technology to try to barbarize the rest of the world.

What we ought to be doing is walling them off/un-nation-building. Let them live like those isolated tribes in Papua New Guinea.
 
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#3,129
#3,129
hog88 said:
The biggest difference in nation building in Japan/Germany vs Iraq and Afghanistan is the differences in the citizenry of the countries. Germany/Japan didn't have a population of mostly illiterate barbarians wanting to live in the 12th century.
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Yep. And Japan and Germany, before the war, were political entities that the populations accepted the idea and existence of. Most people living in Iraq and especially Afghanistan don't even believe in the idea of an entity called "Iraq" or "Afghanistan." As they see it they have nothing in common with the tribe that lives over on the other side of the river/mountain, so why they should be in any kind of a political union with them. In that part of the world the countries that are stable have a relatively homogeneous population (Iran, Saudi Arabia). Countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria are a hodge podge of different tribes attempted to be cobbled together by foreign powers that all hate each other and do not want to live alongside each other.

The United States is the exception, not the rule, in terms of different groups of people coming together and living in a common political system and generally getting along.
 
#3,130
#3,130
hog88 said:
The biggest difference in nation building in Japan/Germany vs Iraq and Afghanistan is the differences in the citizenry of the countries. Germany/Japan didn't have a population of mostly illiterate barbarians wanting to live in the 12th century.
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I’m literally reading about this right now in a book titled Aftermath: Germany 1945-1955.

Entire chapter on just the task of removing rubble just so rebuilding could take place. Amazing how quickly a defeated maniacal population can do a 180 and get their **** moving in the right direction after getting their ass kicked. It does take a non barbarian mindset.
 
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#3,131
#3,131
hog88 said:
The biggest difference in nation building in Japan/Germany vs Iraq and Afghanistan is the differences in the citizenry of the countries. Germany/Japan didn't have a population of mostly illiterate barbarians wanting to live in the 12th century.
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That and both countries had been blown to oblivion and had massive parts of their countries in runs with nearly every family member losing someone.
However, we continue to try the same strategy we did for Germany (or West Germany) in 1946 with other nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, etc. and it is clearly not working.
 
#3,132
#3,132
volbound1700 said:
That and both countries had been blown to oblivion and had massive parts of their countries in runs with nearly every family member losing someone.
However, we continue to try the same strategy we did for Germany (or West Germany) in 1946 with other nations like Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, etc. and it is clearly not working.
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It would have worked in Vietnam had the Kennedy's and LBJ not ****ed everything up over there. You are correct about Iraq and Afghanistan, building a western style democracy in either country is an impossible task.
 
#3,133
#3,133
hog88 said:
It would have worked in Vietnam had the Kennedy's and LBJ not ****ed everything up over there. You are correct about Iraq and Afghanistan, building a western style democracy in either country is an impossible task.
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With Vietnam, the real issue was we backed a government that sucked and did not care about its people. In many ways, the USA did NOT lose the Vietnam War, South Vietnam lost the Vietnam War. We were propping up a government that had no legitimacy for its people and really wasn't putting in the effort to win its people over.
 
#3,134
#3,134
#3,135
#3,135
Burhead said:
Its okay. I hold nothing personal on here and that includes Ras. In some ways I respect him and his dedication to the cause.
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I'm dedicated to peace, open commerce and freedom. Unfortunately, the people running this country (and other Wsetern nations) and pumping these wars are not of the same mindset. They are enemies of humanity. Any kind of disruptive force or entity out there that stands in their way is a good thing. Desperate times call for desperate measures. You can call Putin whatever you want, but he clearly stands in stark contrast to what our leadership stands for right now, warts and all.
 
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#3,136
#3,136
hog88 said:
The biggest difference in nation building in Japan/Germany vs Iraq and Afghanistan is the differences in the citizenry of the countries. Germany/Japan didn't have a population of mostly illiterate barbarians wanting to live in the 12th century.
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Sovereignty... those people have the right to live how ever way they please. The error was us getting ourselves involved in their matters in the first place.

What has Iraq ever done to us? Or, Syria? Or... if, I really want to get controversial and raise a few hairs, what has Iran ever done to us?

Meanwhile, we are allies with KSA and Israel. You can't make this up.
 
#3,137
#3,137
Rasputin_Vol said:
Sovereignty... those people have the right to live how ever way they please. The error was us getting ourselves involved in their matters in the first place.

What has Iraq ever done to us? Or, Syria? Or... if, I really want to get controversial and raise a few hairs, what has Iran ever done to us?

Meanwhile, we are allies with KSA and Israel. You can't make this up.
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Iran did hold our embassy staff and their families hostage. I would say that was a MAJOR problem.

If you go back to our ancestors, they launched Jihads on Medieval Europe and the Byzantine Empire constantly from 650 A.D. to 1400 A.D. The last one is a major stretch but I thought that I would bring it up because they often cite to old Medieval conflicts to justify their terrorist attacks today.
 
#3,138
#3,138
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm dedicated to peace, open commerce and freedom. Unfortunately, the people running this country (and other Wsetern nations) and pumping these wars are not of the same mindset. They are enemies of humanity. Any kind of disruptive force or entity out there that stands in their way is a good thing. Desperate times call for desperate measures. You can call Putin whatever you want, but he clearly stands in stark contrast to what our leadership stands for right now, warts and all.
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Putin stands for freedom, peace, and open commerce?
 
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#3,143
#3,143
hog88 said:
The biggest difference in nation building in Japan/Germany vs Iraq and Afghanistan is the differences in the citizenry of the countries. Germany/Japan didn't have a population of mostly illiterate barbarians wanting to live in the 12th century.
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Very true although Japan was very backwards culturally but are extremely hard working
 
#3,147
#3,147
Orangeburst said:
US oil imports 1MBD now at $100 barrrel thus fueling Putin’s war machine
Biden is one cluster****
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Can you explain what Biden has to do with oil prices or futures with respects to Putin's stunts along the Ukrainian border?

Specifically, what would you do differently?
 
#3,149
#3,149
Merkel Forever! German Leftists Want Ex-Chancellor Back for Russia Negotiations

GettyImages-1228009781-e1644930403599-640x479.jpg


The head of a major leftist party in Germany has called for former Chancellor Angela Merkel to return to international politics in order to help negotiate a solution to the Russia-Ukraine crisis.

Merkel Forever! German Leftists Want Ex-Chancellor Back for Russia Talks
 
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