War in Ukraine

#3,326
#3,326
Rasputin_Vol said:
Lets assume the poll is real. From the outside looking in, would Ukraine be better served joining with the dysfunctional EU and NATO or just doing nothing? Lets not even offer turning to Russia as an option.
Click to expand...
Assuming Russia is still a threat, I would say taking the steps towards the EU and NATO would be better. They would be foolish to stand alone. But after Russia took Crimea and Eastern Ulraine staying neutral isnt a viable option.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tvolsfan
#3,327
#3,327
05_never_again said:
"Path to diplomacy" from Russia's perspective means 1) a guarantee that Ukraine will never enter NATO and 2) NATO removes troops from Eastern Europe. Those are total non-starters.
Click to expand...
No one can explain why those two points are non-starters. It is the very essence of this entire situation and The West/NATO are fully aware of what they are doing.
 
#3,329
#3,329
tvolsfan said:
”Would Ukraine be better off joining a prosperous economic union and a highly successful military alliance or strengthening ties with a delusional autocrat who considers the collapse of the Soviet Union to be a geopolitical disaster and clearly wants to annex part or all of your country?”
Click to expand...
Is that an option I gave in that example?

And if you think the EU is functional, then why did the UK leave?
 
#3,330
#3,330
Rasputin_Vol said:
Lets assume the poll is real. From the outside looking in, would Ukraine be better served joining with the dysfunctional EU and NATO or just doing nothing? Lets not even offer turning to Russia as an option.
Click to expand...

Old Soviet satellite countries such as Hungary and Poland are missing the decade or so of sovereignty they had between the USSR and joining NATO and the EU...
 
#3,332
#3,332
Rasputin_Vol said:
No one can explain why those two points are non-starters. It is the very essence of this entire situation and The West/NATO are fully aware of what they are doing.
Click to expand...
Because Russia/Putin, or anybody outside NATO, should not have veto power over what the alliance does. Who countries choose to enter into alliances with should be up to them. It's a total non-starter, regardless of what you think about NATO.

Should NATO be able to dictate who Russia enters into an alliance with?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickyvol77, MontyPython and tvolsfan
#3,335
#3,335
Pacer92 said:
Old Soviet satellite countries such as Hungary and Poland are missing the decade or so of sovereignty they had between the USSR and joining NATO and the EU...
Click to expand...
Poland is a wild card. Obviously, they are stanchly anti-Russian, but at the same time, I think your observation is correct. They do appear to have a desire to be more in control of their own destiny and it seems like their current arrangement places limits on them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pacer92
#3,337
#3,337
05_never_again said:
Because Russia/Putin, or anybody outside NATO, should not have veto power over what the alliance does. Who countries choose to enter into alliances with should be up to them. It's a total non-starter, regardless of what you think about NATO.

Should NATO be able to dictate who Russia enters into an alliance with?
Click to expand...
That occurs anytime The West imposes sanctions on Russia.
 
#3,339
#3,339
05_never_again said:
He'll refute it, because by his own admission he holds Putin to a different (lower) standard than the West.
Click to expand...
Why do you have such an issue with me holding the US to a higher standard? We should be acting in a more righteous manner and setting the example for everyone else, correct?
 
#3,340
#3,340
Rasputin_Vol said:
That occurs anytime The West imposes sanctions on Russia.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. Russia can enter into an alliance with whomever they want, and the West can respond accordingly. I am not aware of an instance where NATO has pushed for legal guarantees that Putin not enter into an alliance with someone. No leader in their right mind (including Putin) would or should ever agree to that.

This angle to the conversation is pointless to engage in with you, because by your own admission you hold Putin to a different standard. It is like having a conversation with someone about the UT/UK basketball game the other night with a person who thinks UK should be allowed to have 6 players on the floor at all times and have their guys foul out after 8 fouls instead of 5.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tvolsfan
#3,342
#3,342
05_never_again said:
No it doesn't. Russia can enter into an alliance with whomever they want, and the West can respond accordingly. I am not aware of an instance where NATO has pushed for legal guarantees that Putin not enter into an alliance with someone. No leader in their right mind (including Putin) would or should ever agree to that.

This angle to the conversation is pointless to engage in with you, because by your own admission you hold Putin to a different standard. It is like having a conversation with someone about the UT/UK basketball game the other night with a person who thinks UK should be allowed to have 6 players on the floor at all times and have their guys foul out after 8 fouls instead of 5.
Click to expand...
In your example, the US is UK. The US crossed their fingers in the early 1990s when they promised not to expand NATO eastward, then immediately broke that promise by adding the Visegrad countries.
 
#3,343
#3,343
LouderVol said:
They are free to leave whenever.

And I very much doubt Poland is considering NATO a bad thing while Russia is making moves on nearby borders.
Click to expand...

I’m sure they would if they could. Did you see where our biggest EU ally voted to leave this corrupt institution back a few years ago...or did you miss that?

Making moves? Inside their own country? Man, the nerve of those dirty Ruski’s..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rasputin_Vol
#3,348
#3,348
Rasputin_Vol said:
In your example, the US is UK. The US crossed their fingers in the early 1990s when they promised not to expand NATO eastward, then immediately broke that promise by adding the Visegrad countries.
Click to expand...
The spoken word that only one person, a Russian, remembers. How convenient.

I love the argument here: The US needs to stay out of the old Soviet Bloc. How dare the US NOT tell the old Soviet Bloc which alliance they can be a part of.

All of the countries made their own voluntary choices to join. None of Russias or the US business to interfere pro or against the move.

Russia signed a treaty guaranteeing the borders of Ukraine in order for them to give up their nukes. Funny you dont bring that up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 05_never_again and tvolsfan
#3,349
#3,349
Rasputin_Vol said:
In your example, the US is UK. The US crossed their fingers in the early 1990s when they promised not to expand NATO eastward, then immediately broke that promise by adding the Visegrad countries.
Click to expand...
I'd agree with you if the Russians secured that explicit guarantee in writing.

All we've got from that situation is hearsay saying "Well, they led us to believe they wouldn't expand!" I don't think that would hold up in a small claims court, much less high-stakes international diplomacy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tvolsfan
#3,350
#3,350
tvolsfan said:
So is it your position that Poland wants to leave the EU/NATO? Like your serious position?
Click to expand...

I’m positive, if the people were given the choice to leave the EU, they would leave...regardless of any cherry picked poll you link. Remember those MSM poll predictions prior to the vote of Brexit?
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top