War in Ukraine

#35,801
#35,801
LouderVol said:
Help as being pressure to get them out, or any type of concessions.

Why? They got themselves involved in a land war in Asia. That is precisely the type of thing we need to stay out of. They werent tourists caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or in jail for taking a bible into North Korea. They werent unfairly targeted because they were Americans. Thet werent there on official American business.

Now if the help was limited to giving them a ride back to the states after they get released I would be fine with that. Or just coordinating the logistics of their release, or housing them in an embassy while things were sorted out, again after their release.

I would not spend one iota of political will or effort on them. They made their beds, now they can lie in them.
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The guy who carried a bible into NK and the kid who swiped propaganda posters were not acting on behalf of the US either. They also knew they were committing a crime in a country that is known for harsh treatment of foreigners especially Americans. It is a country that executes its own citizens for less. If it is right to try to secure their release it is also right to try to secure the release or at least fair treatment of the guys captured in Ukraine IMO.
 
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#35,802
#35,802
WSJ:

"The Russian offensive is likely to have been further stalled by a successful Ukrainian missile strike on an ammunition storage facility used by Russia and its proxy forces in the town of Krasny Luch, deep in the rear of Russian-controlled Luhansk. While the strike, using the Tochka-U ballistic missile, took place on Thursday, it was only over the weekend that the extent of the damage became clear, with footage showing a devastated wasteland littered with burned artillery shells. According to pro-Russian military correspondents, the Krasny Luch facility was the principal warehouse of Russian ammunition for the Severodonetsk offensive.”

:cool:
 
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#35,805
#35,805
LouderVol said:
Help as being pressure to get them out, or any type of concessions.

Why? They got themselves involved in a land war in Asia. That is precisely the type of thing we need to stay out of. They werent tourists caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or in jail for taking a bible into North Korea. They werent unfairly targeted because they were Americans. Thet werent there on official American business.

Now if the help was limited to giving them a ride back to the states after they get released I would be fine with that. Or just coordinating the logistics of their release, or housing them in an embassy while things were sorted out, again after their release.

I would not spend one iota of political will or effort on them. They made their beds, now they can lie in them.
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Plus if I'm not mistaken some of these guys and gals in here were bragging recently about foreign fighters going to Ukraine and fighting in the war for them. It's not the job of our military to go in there and help rescue them now. Let Poland and the UK do it since both countries can handle Russia on their own.
 
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#35,806
#35,806
LouderVol said:
IIRC there was a Vice article following their rise in Syria. I know I linked it at least twice in one of the Syria threads.


All of this is TIFWIW from my memory of 8ish years ago.
Assad was fighting a bunch of people. ISIS was one of them but they werent a threat. The main threat was whatever the Syrian freedom group called itself. (Peoples army of something, made up of all the old veterans Assad fired) They had pushed Assad way back.

Now Assad had a bunch of old Al Queda and other terrorists locked up from an exchange with the US, that's a fun rabbit hole worth reading that you should like. They got out. Again IIRC there was some confusion. There might have been an internal jail break, or an outside strike happened and some prisoners got free. Now part of the confusion is that the jail claims these leaders had already been moved before the incident and were in another facility. But they were actually free.

What made the Peoples Army dangerous, and ISIS not dangerous was leadership. The peoples army was made up of vets. Who were effective leaders. ISIS had little foothold because they had no leadership. Of course some of the leadership that had been locked up were exIraqi military so now ISIS was effectively lead.

Also ISIS was able to change narrative. The Peoples Army was fighting a pure government based rebellion and was able to draw support from a lot of disgruntled people that were all anti Assad and didnt have too many issues with each other because it was focused on other issues. But with ISIS on the rise the religious support was drawn away from the Peoples Army and now Assad gets to claim he is fighting Islamic extremists.
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ISIS controlled over half of Syria at one point and ended up destroying important historical and religious sites not only in Syria but in Iraq as well. Oh yeah and they also got a hold of weapons and equipment that we had provided Iraq. I'm not sure where you got your information from but ISIS and the Al Qaeda affiliate in Syria were the two biggest threats to the Syrian government at the height of the Civil War there. Plus you had Turkey, Israel, and the U.S. meddling in the affairs of a sovereign nation on top of that. Israel is still bombing and attacking Syria on a regular basis. Turkey occupies territory in northern Syria at the moment.
 
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#35,807
#35,807
Hunerwadel said:
The guy who carried a bible into NK and the kid who swiped propaganda posters were not acting on behalf of the US either. They also knew they were committing a crime in a country that is known for harsh treatment of foreigners especially Americans. It is a country that executes its own citizens for less. If it is right to try to secure their release it is also right to try to secure the release or at least fair treatment of the guys captured in Ukraine IMO.
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Fighting a war against our government is a crime here. It is a crime over there. Like I said we shouldnt spend any political capital on our mercs
 
#35,809
#35,809
DonjoVol said:
ISIS controlled over half of Syria at one point and ended up destroying important historical and religious sites not only in Syria but in Iraq as well. Oh yeah and they also got a hold of weapons and equipment that we had provided Iraq. I'm not sure where you got your information from but ISIS and the Al Qaeda affiliate in Syria were the two biggest threats to the Syrian government at the height of the Civil War there. Plus you had Turkey, Israel, and the U.S. meddling in the affairs of a sovereign nation on top of that. Israel is still bombing and attacking Syria on a regular basis. Turkey occupies territory in northern Syria at the moment.
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Yes. All of that happened AFTER Assad let their leaders go. They werent a threat early on. Assad needed them to be, to take away from the People's Army (or whatever it was called).

He was losing to a populist movement, and had to turn it into a religious issue to get foreign support.
 
#35,810
#35,810
HvXX7C3qldt9x8p0RTsyXIJDOuVpdNAo3h1x56CjY_A.jpg
 
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#35,816
#35,816
LouderVol said:
Yes. All of that happened AFTER Assad let their leaders go. They werent a threat early on. Assad needed them to be, to take away from the People's Army (or whatever it was called).

He was losing to a populist movement, and had to turn it into a religious issue to get foreign support.
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I believe you are thinking of the Free Syrian Army. Who would side with ISIS before they would Assad. ISIS was a threat in Iraq before Syria from what I remember. Some soldiers from his military defected to ISIS and let's not forget that ISIS consisted of many foreign fighters as well as former Iraqi military. It was well coordinated and the timing of their rise was extremely odd.
 
#35,820
#35,820
Once again, regardless of political stripe in our system, the number of people on here who are openly supporting a former KGB sociopath against a MUCH smaller nation amazes me.

Putin is a murderous thug. The russian military ignores the law of armed conflict and targets civilians continuously. I don't get the fanboi fascination with either.
 
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#35,821
#35,821
IluvdoubleD's said:
Ukraine just blew up a russian oil platform in the black sea, and possibly an oil tanker. Although, the tanker could have been confused with the oil platform. There have been a lot of russian oil routes targeted lately. If you are still dependent on russian oil life will get more difficult.
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Ukraine Attacks Russian-Occupied Oil Platforms, Snake Island Strike Rumors Swirl

Russia is promising retaliation for an early morning attack by Ukraine on Russian-occupied gas drilling rigs in the northwestern Black Sea and says that they will strengthen defenses on the Crimean peninsula as a result.
 
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#35,824
#35,824
Things are heating up... 300 KIA and 19 tanks in one day. These are insane numbers if even remotely accurate.

Russians appear to be in a meat grinder in Sievierodonetsk. In the end, they'll probably take it, but at the cost of culmination. The longer the Ukrainians can hold out, though, the more long range artillery they'll have in theater. And a prolonged defensive urban battle works to Ukraine's advantage.

Most of what I've read recently indicates there's more fire on the *receiving* end in Russian held areas around the city, which is very interesting. The French mobile artillery systems appear to be making a significant difference in the artillery battle.

Meanwhile, for every inch Russia gains in the East, they seem to be losing 10 in the South around Kherson.

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