War in Ukraine

#3,801
#3,801
Rasputin_Vol said:
How does it affect America if Russia gains more land? Ukraine is mostly agricultural. The US Empire had control of Afghanistan and squandered its resources in favor of trading opium and promoting the local black market there. What specifically are you talking about when you say gain more land?

With regards to natural resources, we have plenty of resources here in this hemisphere, but if there are rare earth metals needed in these other regions (Afghanistan, Russia), what is the matter with establishing peaceful and mutually beneficial trade with these countries instead of taking on a belligerent and condescending posture?

And lastly the trade control... why does it bother you that Russia or any other sovereign country gains more control over their ability to trade? How is increased Russian trade a threat to the United States... or more specifically, to the US people?
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Wrong, Ukraine was also a center of heavy industry and is also a major source of aluminum, steel, energy, and other metals.

It is a resource-rich region and, on paper, should be one of the most wealthy countries in Europe although it is among the most poor regions.
 
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#3,803
#3,803
volbound1700 said:
Wrong, Ukraine was also a center of heavy industry and is also a major source of aluminum, steel, energy, and other metals.

It is a resource-rich region and, on paper, should be one of the most wealthy countries in Europe although it is among the most poor regions.
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Also has some of the best coal mines in Europe.
 
#3,804
#3,804
allvol123 said:
Stop being so damn myopic. This is bigger than Ukraine and also if you want to go back to what you had written then we just need to understand what you have written is false. That clears that up.
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Since you and I seem to be on the same page regarding Russian expansion, I'm curious to what you think should be the response. I know everyone hates Biden here, but I am happy with his efforts to rally hesitant European countries, some of whom would clearly prefer to offer their strong "condemnations" and leave it at that.
 
#3,805
#3,805
Ukrainian military leaders are pure genius. Sun Zsu could learn a thing or two from these MFers. Just think about it. An absolutely brilliantly executed plan to delay their invasion of the eastern rebellion regions until the opposing forces had amassed 175,000 troops around them and given them time to prepare their “defenses”. These MFers are legend.
 
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#3,806
#3,806
NorthDallas40 said:
Ukrainian military leaders are pure genius. Sun Zsu could learn a thing or two from these MFers. Just think about it. An absolutely brilliantly executed plan to delay their invasion of the eastern rebellion regions until the opposing forces had amassed 175,000 troops around them and given them time to prepare their “defenses”. These MFers are legend.
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The surprise attack of the century. We've all been lead to believe Russia was going to invade when really it was a Ukrainian deception play all along.

I suppose Estonia will be launching their long awaited march to Moscow any day now as well.
 
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#3,807
#3,807
tvolsfan said:
Since you and I seem to be on the same page regarding Russian expansion, I'm curious to what you think should be the response. I know everyone hates Biden here, but I am happy with his efforts to rally hesitant European countries, some of whom would clearly prefer to offer their strong "condemnations" and leave it at that.
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I can’t honestly say I know or have developed a preferred response. I’m not for American troop involvement, but would never rule it out (it’s why you have a military). I do believe we should be offering Ukraine assistance in weapons. Hell we gave it away to the Islamists in Afghanistan, surely we could let some go to people wanting freedom. And yes. Europe should be strongly stepping up to the plate.
 
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#3,808
#3,808
volbound1700 said:
Wrong, Ukraine was also a center of heavy industry and is also a major source of aluminum, steel, energy, and other metals.
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Did I or did I not say "mostly" agricultural? And the majority of the minerals and metals they have are no different than what Russia already has.
volbound1700 said:
It is a resource-rich region and, on paper, should be one of the most wealthy countries in Europe although it is among the most poor regions.
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Ukraine is similar to Argentina. Vast potential but corrupt leadership.
 
#3,809
#3,809
Rasputin_Vol said:
Did I or did I not say "mostly" agricultural? And the majority of the minerals and metals they have are no different than what Russia already has.

Ukraine is similar to Argentina. Vast potential but corrupt leadership.
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How is it mostly agricultural? A quick google says 6% of their labor market works in agriculture.

And the bold. Lol. What the F does that even matter?
 
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#3,814
#3,814
If Ukraine is so rich in resources, and they are failing to access their own riches due to corruption interfering with extraction/production, and Russia is an exporter of resources to the United States with established infrastructure to export to the US and a more stable government (and has enough volume coming here that sanctions would apparently be impactful), would it not be in American interests for the stable, logistically capable organization with a track record of successful exports to have control over said resources?

Edit: just trying to follow the logic path that's been established here.
 
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#3,816
#3,816
ButchPlz said:
If Ukraine is so rich in resources, and they are failing to access their own riches due to corruption interfering with extraction/production, and Russia is an exporter of resources to the United States with established infrastructure to export to the US and a more stable government (and has enough volume coming here that sanctions would apparently be impactful), would it not be in American interests for the stable, logistically capable organization with a track record of successful exports to have control over said resources?

Edit: just trying to follow the logic path that's been established here.
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It is logical to want socialist and communist powers acquire more resources?
 
#3,818
#3,818
ButchPlz said:
If Ukraine is so rich in resources, and they are failing to access their own riches due to corruption interfering with extraction/production, and Russia is an exporter of resources to the United States with established infrastructure to export to the US and a more stable government (and has enough volume coming here that sanctions would apparently be impactful), would it not be in American interests for the stable, logistically capable organization with a track record of successful exports to have control over said resources?
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You are asking a question that makes sense, yet you will not get an honest answer. We could be better off trying to forge peaceful relations and mutually beneficial trade with Russia. But the planners and oligarchs that control this country have an agenda to achieve. A continuation of "The Great Game" or as Zbigniew Brzezinski called it "The Grand Chessboard".
 
#3,820
#3,820
Rasputin_Vol said:
You are asking a question that makes sense, yet you will not get an honest answer. We could be better off trying to forge peaceful relations and mutually beneficial trade with Russia. But the planners and oligarchs that control this country have an agenda to achieve. A continuation of "The Great Game" or as Zbigniew Brzezinski called it "The Grand Chessboard".
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I don't even think about it that deeply. We have infinitely more in common, values-wise, with the average Russian than we do with China, who is a very real enemy.

All these people want to pretend I'm being "isolationist" because I'm not interested in American combat or involvement against the Russians. The truth is, we can't do it all alone. The warmongers in this thread say that out of one side of their mouths then aim to make enemies of the whole world out of the other. It's asinine.
 
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#3,821
#3,821
allvol123 said:
Go to the words directly after the ones you highlighted. @Rasputin_Vol
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I addressed each of the three points you made, and yet you deflected and moved the goalposts. I asked you specifically about the implications of each condition you brought up.

Rasputin_Vol said:
How does it affect America if Russia gains more land? Ukraine is mostly agricultural. The US Empire had control of Afghanistan and squandered its resources in favor of trading opium and promoting the local black market there. What specifically are you talking about when you say gain more land?

With regards to natural resources, we have plenty of resources here in this hemisphere, but if there are rare earth metals needed in these other regions (Afghanistan, Russia), what is the matter with establishing peaceful and mutually beneficial trade with these countries instead of taking on a belligerent and condescending posture?

And lastly the trade control... why does it bother you that Russia or any other sovereign country gains more control over their ability to trade? How is increased Russian trade a threat to the United States... or more specifically, to the US people?
Click to expand...
 
#3,822
#3,822
allvol123 said:
Putin’s Russia does not want to team up with us. He prefers China.
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We've pushed them towards China due to sanctions and NATO positioning. That is not exactly the most ideal alliance for Russia considering that the two countries have disputes about the Far East territories.
 
#3,823
#3,823
allvol123 said:
Putin’s Russia does not want to team up with us. He prefers China.
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This is your opinion and not fact. The moment China tries to push openly and very hard into Russia's Central Asia sphere, you think the Russians (who you seem to decry as some big bad evil empire) are going to stand by and wait? And you think Russia genuinely has zero interest in aligning with the US? If that's actually the case, it's only because three quarters of our political establishment and their useful idiots in the citizenry are pretending it's the 1960s and the enemy that is the USSR is at our doorstep.

Maybe we ought to try a friendlier hand instead of trying to stoke a war over a chunk of land that we don't have use for.
 
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#3,824
#3,824
Rasputin_Vol said:
I addressed each of the three points you made, and yet you deflected and moved the goalposts. I asked you specifically about the implications of each condition you brought up.
Click to expand...

I’ve moved nothing and you continue your dishonesty.

It isn’t mostly agricultural.

It doesn’t matter if you have all the natural resources you need. If another country dominates acquisition of additional resources, they then use those to manipulate relationships with other country’s. Thus, diminishing your standing with said country’s. If you’re going to play then stop with the absolute dishonest position that it is the year 1100 and we live in a bubble.
 
#3,825
#3,825
MontyPython said:
Curious. Were the three biggest, longest and most expensive (lives and money) wars for the US in the past 60 years (Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq) part of defending America and our interests and allies?
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Considering the Gulf of Tonkin attack by the NVA never occurred answers that question, Saddam Hussein was absolutely no threat to the US after he was castrated during the Persian Gulf War answers that question, which leaves Afghanistan. One could argue that it was justified by Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden’s presence there and one could argue other countries like Saudi Arabia were just as guilty with heavy financial support coming from individuals there. You could also argue that OBL hated the Saudi family after rejecting his offer to defend the Holy Land from Saddam’s aggression prior to the Persian Gulf War. We became the “Great Satan” afterwards in his eyes so conflict with Al Qaeda became inevitable. That is the only war that you could argue we were protecting our self interests BUT that argument falls apart after two decades of nation building.
 
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