War in Ukraine

[Vol8188]

Our initial conversation had nothing to do with property rights. This is a complete non sequitur.

Vaccine mandates whether imposed by government or a private business are not libertarian in nature. This goes against the preamble and sections 1.0 and 1.1 of the Libertarian Party platform. At no point in time have you proven vaccine mandates or even mask mandates are libertarian in nature.

Vaccine mandates within your own property is a form of property rights. I’m not sure how you don’t understand that.

I can limit my home to only vaccinated people. I can limit my business to only vaccinated people.

The same for mask mandates. How’s that not libertarian

 

[Vol8188]

Who’s offended? If a race can be a feeling or emotion, then so can gender. Right?

And if gender is on a spectrum, race 100% is

 

[DonjoVol]

I already have. And others have already shown you there are basically three or in some camps up to four basic races based on their defining biological traits.

Prove me wrong Curly

What's the 4 basic races? Because according to the U.S. Census Bureau there are more than 4 here in the United States.

I also explained, for example the characteristics that make the Basque people unique and different from other races of European people. You could counter that by telling us how they are the same. Saying because their skin color is similar or "because I said so" aren't valid explanations. As a matter of fact it would show pure laziness on your part.

 

[DonjoVol]

Vaccine mandates within your own property is a form of property rights. I’m not sure how you don’t understand that.

I can limit my home to only vaccinated people. I can limit my business to only vaccinated people.

The same for mask mandates. How’s that not libertarian

Once again. How do vaccine mandates apply to the Libertarian Party platform? They don't. You can figure this out by reading the preamble and sections 1.0 and 1.1 of the platform. And I know this hurts your feelings but business owners don't have special privileges over other individuals. Trying to force employees to take a medical treatment that is unnecessary or they might feel is unsafe is not libertarian. Not sure what part of that is hard to understand. Employees are not your property.

Also you and others have failed to prove how vaccine and mask mandates are actually safe.

 

[norrislakevol]

Bringing up gender is a non sequitur and irrelevant to this conversation.

So you're telling me Japanese, Chinese,Tibetan, Ainu, Okinawan and Korean people are the same race?

Yes, they are all Asians.

The 3 races are African, Asian, and White. A strong argument Could be made by native Americans to be the 4th race, but they are really just Asians.

 

[Vol8188]

Once again. How do vaccine mandates apply to the Libertarian Party platform? They don't. You can figure this out by reading the preamble and sections 1.0 and 1.1 of the platform. And I know this hurts your feelings but business owners don't have special privileges over other individuals. Trying to force employees to take a medical treatment that is unnecessary or they might feel is unsafe is not libertarian. Not sure what part of that is hard to understand. Employees are not your property.

Also you and others have failed to prove how vaccine and mask mandates are actually safe.

Mandates are government. You were speaking of businesses.

What special privilege am I claiming business has over you?

No one is forced to take anything because you can always work somewhere else.

Your business is your property and your employees do so voluntarily.

 

[DonjoVol]

Mandates are government. You were speaking of businesses.

What special privilege am I claiming business has over you?

No one is forced to take anything because you can always work somewhere else.

Your business is your property and your employees do so voluntarily.

Employees are not your property. Mandates can come from business and government.

So what scientific evidence do you have that vaccine and mask mandates are safe?

Second. Would you be okay if employees or former employees filed a lawsuit against the employer if they developed harmful side effects from a forced medical treatment? Or do you think businesses and employers are off the hook from any potential lawsuits?

Last but not least. Where do vaccine mandates apply to the Libertarian Party platform?

 

[Vol8188]

Employees are not your property. Mandates can come from business and government.

So what scientific evidence do you have that vaccine and mask mandates are safe?

Second. Would you be okay if employees or former employees filed a lawsuit against the employer if they developed harmful side effects from a forced medical treatment? Or do you think businesses and employers are off the hook from any potential lawsuits?

Last but not least. Where do vaccine mandates apply to the Libertarian Party platform?

This has nothing to do with how safe they are. That’s not the conversation. Nor is this about potential litigation.

The question is regarding the libertarian platform and business rights. Business owners have freedom of association. As do employees. Businesses are under no obligation to associate with unvaccinated people.

Why do you believe business owners should not have the basic right to freedom of association? And why do you believe it’s not libertarian to provide freedom for business owners

 

[DonjoVol]

Yes, they are all Asians.

The 3 races are African, Asian, and White. A strong argument Could be made by native Americans to be the 4th race, but they are really just Asians.

What similar characteristics do they all have? How are Ainu, Tibetans,, Uiygur, Yonaguni, and Atayal people all the same? Please provide specific examples and how they are all related. Thanks.

 

[Vol8188]

Me, LG, professor, k town, st18 whoever you find to be the most annoying poster on here, we have nothing on this guy.

 

[DonjoVol]

This has nothing to do with how safe they are. That’s not the conversation. Nor is this about potential litigation.

The question is regarding the libertarian platform and business rights. Business owners have freedom of association. As do employees. Businesses are under no obligation to associate with unvaccinated people.

Why do you believe business owners should not have the basic right to freedom of association? And why do you believe it’s not libertarian to provide freedom for business owners

That business owner has the freedom to start his own business and employ people. However those employees still are NOT their property and should have domain over their own bodies and the ability to determine their own medical treatment and decisions. So you think business owners know what is best for them? Do you think people should be denied the right to determine their own medical treatment?

You do realize there are a reason labor laws exist right?

Why would you as a business owner not want to associate with unvaccinated people? That makes absolutely no sense.

Once again. Show me in the national Libertarian Party platform where any kind of mandate is okay. You have the opportunity to show me so please feel free to do so. Otherwise you are completely embarrassing yourself once again on this topic.

Would Libertarian founders like Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker agree with you?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You’re confusing race with nationality or ethnicity

My gawd... they are a branch of Slavic peoples. No one can dispute that. But to be clear, the country of Russia has several different ethnicities (Russians, Ukrainians, East Asian tribes, Tartars, Kazakhs, etc). No one is confusing Stalin of being an "ethnic" Russian. I think that most intelligent people in here can make that distinction.

 

[DonjoVol]

My gawd... they are a branch of Slavic peoples. No one can dispute that. But to be clear, the country of Russia has several different ethnicities (Russians, Ukrainians, East Asian tribes, Tartars, Kazakhs, etc). No one is confusing Stalin of being an "ethnic" Russian. I think that most intelligent people in here can make that distinction.

And now they are trying to bring gender into the discussion lol. And now I'm back arguing with the guy who treats business owners like they are God. The whataboutisms these guys create are off the charts.

Going back to Russian people, the Rus people themselves were originally from Scandinavia.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Nationality isn't the same as race/ethnicity.

For example you have Russian Ukrainians and Ukrainian Russians. Or even Russian Transnistrians. Transnistrian itself is not an actual racial/ethnic group like Russian and Ukrainian are. Like Kosovo is made up of more than 90 percent ethnic Albanians. That's why Transnistria and even the Donetsk People's Republic is more similar to Kosovo in nature.

I don't even know why we are having to split hairs on this nationality vs ethnic vs racial nonsense because it is getting away from the main point anyways. And for a group of people in here that are anti-Woke and hardcore against identity politics, they sure do get their panties in a bunch when someone mentions "ethnic Russians" in eastern Ukraine. I guess if someone just calls them Russian speakers or Slavs that identify as Russian, maybe that would be more to their liking, but it still wouldn't change the conversation in their minds. Its just a mechanism to deviate from the debate or to muddy the waters.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Rand Corporation leans left in their reporting.

Wow... I just went to the RAND Wiki page. Very first paragraph... no bias in that think tank whatsoever.

RAND Corporation - Wikipedia

The RAND Corporation ("research and development") is an American nonprofit global policy think tank created in 1948 by Douglas Aircraft Company to offer research and analysis to the United States Armed Forces. It is financed by the U.S. government and private endowment, corporations, universities and private individuals.

So a military supplier offering military advice to the US govt. I wonder what kind of guidance military contractors are most likely to offer? Diplomacy? Negotiated peace? Non-interventionist policy? Just wondering out loud.

 

[Vol8188]

That business owner has the freedom to start his own business and employ people. However those employees still are NOT their property and should have domain over their own bodies and the ability to determine their own medical treatment and decisions. So you think business owners know what is best for them? Do you think people should be denied the right to determine their own medical treatment?

You do realize there are a reason labor laws exist right?

Why would you as a business owner not want to associate with unvaccinated people? That makes absolutely no sense.

Once again. Show me in the national Libertarian Party platform where any kind of mandate is okay. You have the opportunity to show me so please feel free to do so. Otherwise you are completely embarrassing yourself once again on this topic.

Would Libertarian founders like Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker agree with you?

Of course employees have domain over their own body. That’s why they can take their body to a different employer. Idk how you’re not understanding that.

Some businesses may know what’s best, others dont. That’s why you get to pick.

“A reason labor laws exist”-I thought you were arguing this from a libertarian perspective?

Idk who anyone else wants to associate nor do I care.

Yes, the libertarian platform and party leaders are 100% aligned on this. Business owners have freedom of association. So do employees. They’re all free to disassociate if they find the terms of the other party to be disagreeable.

You may be the only person I’ve ever met who fails to understand libertarianism

 

[utvolpj]

Me, LG, professor, k town, st18 whoever you find to be the most annoying poster on here, we have nothing on this guy.

You've been Donjo'd is a thing

 

[DonjoVol]

I don't even know why we are having to split hairs on this nationality vs ethnic vs racial nonsense because it is getting away from the main point anyways. And for a group of people in here that are anti-Woke and hardcore against identity politics, they sure do get their panties in a bunch when someone mentions "ethnic Russians" in eastern Ukraine. I guess if someone just calls them Russian speakers or Slavs that identify as Russian, maybe that would be more to their liking, but it still wouldn't change the conversation in their minds. Its just a mechanism to deviate from the debate or to muddy the waters.

History has actually shown that there are different characteristics amongst racial/ ethnic groups. That's why I don't really like to lump people into one category. Ukrainian and Russians are probably somewhat related but they don't see each other that way. In reality Ukrainians and Belarusians are more closely related to each other than Ukrainians are to Russians. But that's a different topic for another time. HoweverI still wouldn't say Ukrainians and Belarusians are the same people.

But yeah you are right about this supposed anti woke crowd being anything but that when we mention ethnic Russians or even Ossetians.

 

[DonjoVol]

You've been Donjo'd is a thing

Why? Because you guys can't provide reasonable arguments and actually use critical thinking skills in debates?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Employees are not your property. Mandates can come from business and government.

This is the hole/blindspot in libertarian thinking. Most of these people only focus on govt tyranny. But as we have seen over the last 2+ years, you can have the govt coercing businesses, or businesses colluding with one another or just a business acting in a manner that endangers the life, liberty and property of employees or the community around them. In other words, businesses have no limitations. To a certain extent, the idealist in me and the part of me that still leans libertarian understands their argument. We ideally want as little govt intervention as possible in businesses. But in a special case like a COVID vaccination mandate, I think this is where common sense/pragmatism needs to step in and carve out an exception. But I know what they are going to counter with, and I understand... carving out an exception could open the door for more bad legislation/actions later on and be a slippery slope.

 

[DonjoVol]

Of course employees have domain over their own body. That’s why they can take their body to a different employer. Idk how you’re not understanding that.

Some businesses may know what’s best, others dont. That’s why you get to pick.

“A reason labor laws exist”-I thought you were arguing this from a libertarian perspective?

Idk who anyone else wants to associate nor do I care.

Yes, the libertarian platform and party leaders are 100% aligned on this. Business owners have freedom of association. So do employees. They’re all free to disassociate if they find the terms of the other party to be disagreeable.

You may be the only person I’ve ever met who fails to understand libertarianism

The Libertarian Party and party leaders are not aligned to vaccine mandates. That's why current LP candidate Shane Hazel speaks out against vaccine mandates in businesses.

Libertarianism doesn't mean "no government at all".

I've provided several quotes from the Libertarian Party platform itself and what you are advocating for does not align with the party platform.

Vaccine mandates should be a clear violation of the NAP. I'm sure as a Libertarian you know what the NAP is.

And please since you are a Libertarian can you tell the forum here about the ideology of Lysander Spooner.

 

[DonjoVol]

This is the hole/blindspot in libertarian thinking. Most of these people only focus on govt tyranny. But as we have seen over the last 2+ years, you can have the govt coercing businesses, or businesses colluding with one another or just a business acting in a manner that endangers the life, liberty and property of employees or the community around them. In other words, businesses have no limitations. To a certain extent, the idealist in me and the part of me that still leans libertarian understands their argument. We ideally want as little govt intervention as possible in businesses. But in a special case like a COVID vaccination mandate, I think this is where common sense/pragmatism needs to step in and carve out an exception. But I know what they are going to counter with, and I understand... carving out an exception could open the door for more bad legislation/actions later on and be a slippery slope.

Even Libertarians like Ron Paul spoke of the dangers of government and businesses colluding with each other to make policies. An example would be Youtube coordinating with the government or a political party to censor speech.

What some of these people are advocating for, as far as private businesses goes, does not match anything found in the Libertarian Party platform. Especially in the preamble and the sections I've mentioned. Those are the first sections on their platform and a reason why they are there.

 

[Vol8188]

The Libertarian Party and party leaders are not aligned to vaccine mandates. That's why current LP candidate Shane Hazel speaks out against vaccine mandates in businesses.

Libertarianism doesn't mean "no government at all".

I've provided several quotes from the Libertarian Party platform itself and what you are advocating for does not align with the party platform.

Vaccine mandates should be a clear violation of the NAP. I'm sure as a Libertarian you know what the NAP is.

And please since you are a Libertarian can you tell the forum here about the ideology of Lysander Spooner.

I understand the NAP extremely well. I also understand property rights. I'm not sure you understand either. The non-aggression principle is not violated by freedom of association.

Rather you are wanting to violate the non-aggression principle by using government force to prevent businesses from determining who they wish to employee. How do you see that as libertarian?

 

[NorthDallas40]

What's the 4 basic races? Because according to the U.S. Census Bureau there are more than 4 here in the United States.

I also explained, for example the characteristics that make the Basque people unique and different from other races of European people. You could counter that by telling us how they are the same. Saying because their skin color is similar or "because I said so" aren't valid explanations. As a matter of fact it would show pure laziness on your part.

Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro I believe going from memory. And some consider a fourth race related to Australia that developed on its own path that I don’t know the name of.

And that’s it. The rest start mixing those basic anthropological races and ethnicity… which is what you’re selling. Ethnicity

 

[marcusluvsvols]

What about when the Visigoths invaded Rome???

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