War in Ukraine

#44,426
#44,426
bcmbvol said:
Ok, please stop assuming things for me. I’m not pro Russian. I’m anti war. I don’t want the invasion to continue either, but it’s important to understand why it’s happening.
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It’s happening because Putin wanted it to happen. It’s a resource grab by Russia, both land and minerals. It isn’t that hard to grasp.
 
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#44,429
#44,429
bcmbvol said:
I mean, if you think that a war starts when people in camo uniforms walk onto a certain plot of land, then you don’t understand war at all. I don’t believe that you believe that though. I’m referring to the political and cultural subversion that began in 2004 called the Orange Revolution (see color revolutions), influenced by NGO’s like NED. When I was there in 2011 the EU was building soccer stadiums for Euro2012 to influence Ukraine to drop their oil deal with Russia. I also saw the new US embassy (which is the largest building in Ukraine) being built, which is where Victoria Nuland directed the installation of Yatzenyuk. This all culminated in open conflict that has seen the Kiev government shelling eastern Ukraine, killing 14000 civilians over the past eight years. Also I’m not going to LMAO at what you say because it isn’t an argument, and it’s a pathetic way of having a discussion.
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That 14000 number includes armed combatants on both sides as well as civilians killed by the rebels, + the commercial airliner THEY SHOT DOWN.
 
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#44,430
#44,430
hog88 said:
It's happening because Putin wants to get the band back together and Ukraine was going to be the first step. It's not much more complicated than that.
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Do you mean to say that he’s trying to incorporate former Soviet states? In order to recapitulate the communist regime, or to simply have them for power? Why didn’t he incorporate Georgia when they were there, or very weak states north of the Caspian? Do you think it could be in response to us advancing or Containment Policy?
 
#44,431
#44,431
bcmbvol said:
Do you mean to say that he’s trying to incorporate former Soviet states? In order to recapitulate the communist regime, or to simply have them for power? Why didn’t he incorporate Georgia when they were there, or very weak states north of the Caspian? Do you think it could be in response to us advancing or Containment Policy?
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Those states are still close to mother moscow and not moving towards a stronger alliance with the west.

We're not and weren't advancing, former Soviet slave states were begging to join NATO and the EU for protection against Putin and his empirical dreams.
 
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#44,432
#44,432
hog88 said:
Those states are still close to mother moscow and not moving towards a stronger alliance with the west.

We're not and weren't advancing, former Soviet slave states were begging to join NATO and the EU for protection against Putin and his empirical dreams.
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The buildup of western arms in the Ukraine has been ongoing, if they had waited much longer there would have been no opportunity to stop new membership. Creep was being used.

his empirical dreams.
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They would need to build up conventional forces to do that, in mass.

The west has known for 25+ years that Russia does not have that capability. New enemies had to be found i.e. Iraqi, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc. Congress was asking questions like, what are all these weapon systems for?
 
#44,433
#44,433
LSU-SIU said:
The buildup of western arms in the Ukraine has been ongoing, if they had waited much longer there would have been no opportunity to stop new membership. Creep was being used.



They would need to build up conventional forces to do that, in mass.
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The buildup of western arms was in response to the buildup of Russian arms in eastern Ukraine. We didn’t start arming Ukraine until 2018 or 2019, after Russian troops/contractors were proven to be in Ukraine assisting and supporting the rebels.
 
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#44,434
#44,434
hog88 said:
The buildup of western arms was in response to the buildup of Russian arms in eastern Ukraine. We didn’t start arming Ukraine until 2018 or 2019, after Russian troops/contractors were proven to be in Ukraine assisting and supporting the rebels.
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Why is "we" involved?
 
#44,436
#44,436
hog88 said:
Do you not pay taxes?
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Yes, but why is the "we" supplying the weapons. The problem lies there.

The real problem and if we step back a little further is the Ukraine really hasn't been living by their obligations for what 20 years, so all bad relations start from there. Which is why Russia has been warning about for quite some time.
 
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#44,438
#44,438
LSU-SIU said:
Yes, but why is the "we" supplying the weapons. The problem lies there.
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I agree that we shouldn't be giving Ukraine anything other than moral support, we should be selling them weapons or selling weapons to European countries and letting them give Ukraine the weapons. But to your point we are giving Ukraine weapons because of Russian aggression. If Russia wasn't arming, supporting and participating in the rebellion in the east we wouldn't have been supplying Ukraine with anything. If Russia hadn't invaded Ukraine we wouldn't be giving them lethal weapons at all.
 
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#44,439
#44,439
hog88 said:
I agree that we shouldn't be giving Ukraine anything other than moral support, we should be selling them weapons or selling weapons to European countries and letting them give Ukraine the weapons. But to your point we are giving Ukraine weapons because of Russian aggression. If Russia wasn't arming, supporting and participating in the rebellion in the east we wouldn't have been supplying Ukraine with anything. If Russia hadn't invaded Ukraine we wouldn't be giving them lethal weapons at all.
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And if the Ukraine had lived by their obligation probably relations wouldn't be this crappy and if the United States had stayed out of the puppet regime they probably wouldn't be at this stage. At this point, the agreements are moot... and they go back to 1991 or so, and let them fight it out.

The Ukraine is all in.
Russia is all in.
Really Europe is all in.
The United States is sitting back and looking at the chaos it has created.

(the scene from Stand by Me comes to mind, the United States looking at all the chaos it created)

tumblr_inline_obg0szRAL71t0ijhl_1280.jpg
 
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#44,442
#44,442
Agreed. I had many people in Kiev tell me that Russia could be there in four days if they wanted to, and they were sort of resigned to that. If we weren’t supplying them and egging them on it would have been over already. A lot less people would have died.
 
#44,443
#44,443
LSU-SIU said:
And if the Ukraine had lived by their obligation probably relations wouldn't be this crappy and if the United States had stayed out of the puppet regime they probably wouldn't be at this stage. At this point, the agreements are moot... and they go back to 1991 or so, and let them fight it out.

The Ukraine is all in.
Russia is all in.
Really Europe is all in.
The United States is sitting back and looking at the chaos it has created.

(the scene from Stand by Me comes to mind, the United States looking at all the chaos it created)

tumblr_inline_obg0szRAL71t0ijhl_1280.jpg
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Lived up to what obligation?
 
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#44,445
#44,445
bcmbvol said:
Agreed. I had many people in Kiev tell me that Russia could be there in four days if they wanted to, and they were sort of resigned to that. If we weren’t supplying them and egging them on it would have been over already. A lot less people would have died.
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How’d that work out? And no the majority of our lethal aid wasn’t committed prior to the Feb 24 invasion.
 
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#44,446
#44,446
bcmbvol said:
Agreed. I had many people in Kiev tell me that Russia could be there in four days if they wanted to, and they were sort of resigned to that. If we weren’t supplying them and egging them on it would have been over already. A lot less people would have died.
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And the Ukrainian people would be slaves to Putin. I'd rather die fighting than be enslaved.
 
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#44,448
#44,448
hog88 said:
And the Ukrainian people would be slaves to Putin. I'd rather die fighting than be enslaved.
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But they're not a slave to the United States. LoL Oh yeah, they're sovereign. What do you think the United States is doing, they're launching economic wars via Bretton Woods II. Even on their "friends".

You actually think the Euro Zone is better, they're going to be slave no matter what they do unless they go full North Korea.

What the world has figured out is all of them are slaves.
 
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