War in Ukraine

[Rasputin_Vol]

This stance is really funny and hypocritical. Eastern Ukrainians have no right to self determination…yet Kurds, Albanians, etc. are supported.

Whataboutism

 

[LouderVol]

Still no proof that anyone you mentioned is paid by the Russian government Proctor. You better go find your comrade Mauser and get some much needed guidance.

So any proof the US media is paid by our government?

You know, consistency?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'll admit. At one time I used to be like these guys and would believe whatever the mainstream media would feed me. Thankfully I grew out of it.

What finally pushed you over the edge? Babies in incubators? Weapons of mass destruction? Nigerien yellow cake? Bin Laden's burial at sea? "f*** the EU"? White helmets? Assad gassed his own people? Russia collusion? Las Vegas shooter narrative? Chinese wet markets? Double masks? "safe and effective"?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

This stance is really funny and hypocritical. Eastern Ukrainians have no right to self determination…yet Kurds, Albanians, etc. are supported.

Dmitry Medvedev with more whataboutisms pointing out hypocrisy

All British politicians are rare misters and hypocrites. Here is a young prime minister with a surname that was previously uncharacteristic for Foggy Albion: until Russia withdraws its troops from the territory of Ukraine, there can be no negotiations. And this despite the fact that everywhere, by the way and inopportunely, of all the irons, the Anglo-Saxons carry: they say, the Ukrainians themselves will decide whether to negotiate with us or not. It turns out lies, duplicity and outrageous cynicism.

Better let the British finally dump the Malvinas and return them to the Argentines. The Falklands are not Britain, but Argentina! And the Argentina national team - with a well-deserved victory in football. Keep it up in the field of foreign policy!

 

[LouderVol]

May as well…but not at war. Is that not the excuse by some in here for doing certain things? Being at war…

I can’t ever imagine the First Lady flying to Paris on a shopping expose’ when US cities are being bombarded…when the country’s infrastructure,(water, electricity), sons are being obliterated by the day…

Maybe I’m wrong.

Cruz vacation to the Caribbean during the texas winter storm.
Obama going to a baseball game in Cuba instead of coming home to address a crisis.
Except for maybe the carters I am about 99% sure you could find examples of all of our presidents and or first ladies enjoying the good life while ordinary citizens suffered.

And also 99% it's not just an American/western issue. Xi and his family have done plenty while the Chinese are still locking down their cities. Assad wasnt eating beans while calling in the Russians to save his butt.

 

[LouderVol]

Any word on when these A10s are going to get a chance to eat some Russian armor? I was clowned in the summer when I was asking if they were really coming in a reasonable time, and so far, no word yet. What is the hold up? And what about those Abrams tanks? Or those Polish Mig-29s?

Ukrainians dont need em. Doing plenty well on their own.

When are these 300k showing up and storming Kiev?

Or what about that Polish invasion of Western Ukraine?

Or the Russian airforce that was going to level Ukraine?

Or all these infrastructure strikes, that were never going to happen because of Peace Prize Putin, going to freeze all the Ukrainians?

Seems like both sides have been throwing out assumptions as facts. Both sides claiming what one side TALKS about POSSIBLY doing as fact.

If you were neutral and didnt want the US involved, you would be happy and not need to being up that we arent giving them A10s or Abrams. But no, you have to seal clap to the Russian narrative about the west breaking promises that never occurred. Because you are just so neutral and unbiased.

 

[LouderVol]

That the west was trying to give Ukraine time? Obviously that was the intention. Do you think really think Putin was dumb enough to think otherwise?

And obvious in that it was a CEASEFIRE and not a PEACE TREATY.

Ceasefires have always been temporary.

And obviously since Russia was able to invade in 2022, they were also using the time to build up for the attack. So again, not just a fault of Ukraine.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

2 minutes of hate...

Brits Erect Penis-Headed Putin Statue, Throw Eggs At "Bellend Of The Year" | ZeroHedge

 

[LouderVol]

You've provided links pushing western, pro-establishment propaganda and that's it. You haven't provided anything to prove anyone wrong. The Nazis still exist in Ukraine and they are loved by many in their population. Especially in the western part of the country. Which is why they build statues in their honor and name streets and soccer stadiums after them.

I will let BLM know they need to visit Ukraine next. Somehow I think the Ukrainians will be more accepting of them than the Russians.

And yes I did provide links,you just refuse to acknowledge them or attacked the messenger and not the message. Since you dont trust what I find do your own research. Go dig up the 7th(2012) Rada vs the 8th(2014) or 9th (current). Go find whatever source you want. Go find the party afflications of those elected and then show them to me if you want to argue Nazis are more in power now than they were. Because they arent.

 

[LouderVol]

They didn't just fight against the Soviet Union. They fought against Poles and other groups as well. It's also well documented that some of the worst acts committed during the Holocaust happened in Ukraine.

Wow. Europeans hate their neighbors, and are willing to fight each other, that's a first....

And your a conviently leaving out how Stalin was even worse to ALL people in Ukraine, and not just Hitler's undesirables.

Ukraine lost more people to Stalin before WW2 than all those killed in the Holocaust. As bad as Hitler and the Nazis are, Stalin is worse. You have to remember Holodomor was just 1 of the evils Stalin unleashed on the peoples of Ukraine.

 

[Velo Vol]

 

[LouderVol]

You still can’t grasp it can you? Western intervention created this. The coup created this…military aid was the reaction.

This stance is really funny and hypocritical. Eastern Ukrainians have no right to self determination…yet Kurds, Albanians, etc. are supported.

My stance isnt hypocritical. And what I support isnt. What the US actually does though is 100% hypocritical as are you guys.

See the Kurds. You dont think we should be helping them gain independence. But you think Russia should be helping Dontesk. That's not consistent.

My politics would be to leave it ALL in the hands of the locals. Foreigners and neighbors need not apply.

Russia getting involved in the independence movement opened the door to other international intervention.

And I already addressed how Russia created the rebels and the issue. The ONLY places where independence movements started in Ukraine was where Russia occupied Ukrainian territory. Pretty much every single province had a counter-protest to the Maidan events. The only ones that went beyond a day or two of peaceful assembly were Dontesk and Luhansk. Crimea just got black ops'ed from the start. I will say it again because you will dodge it, the only areas that went beyond a day or two of counter protests were areas held by the Russians. All of Ukraine was willing to wait on the elections Yanukoych agreed to, it was only the Russians that werent. And I largely believe the elections turned out the way they did because of Russia grabbing land. Yanukoych still had enough support to force their run off/alliance system. But that, and the protests dried up super fast when Russia took the east.

That's not a coincidence to me. Apparently it is to you. Just like you think it's a coincidence that the rebels were armed with modern Russian equipment the rest of Ukraine did not have access too.

 

[AM64]

Her own words are scandalous.

And @AM64 , why did you like this comment?

Seemed reasonable. Was it supposed to have been in implied blue ink and I missed the true intent?

 

[LouderVol]

He is never going to grasp it. His loyalty to the Western establishment is equivalent to the loyalty the Brooklyn Brawler gave to the WWE all them years.

No. My loyalty is to the truth. Actually it's more just interest, watching history unfold in front of me. All the US wars I was too young to really grasp when they started. And internal policy has never held the same interest as foreign policy.

I am still on record saying that I think Ukraine loses this war. I just dont begrudge them their fight.

And just like i thought Russia should have stayed out of the Dontesk independence, I believe the US should stay out of freely arming Ukraine. But somehow my anonymous posts on Volnation arent taken as foreign policy in DC. And you misconstrue that to mean I support Ukraine. It's literally the only argument you have.

Someone criticizes Putin. Oh they must worship Zelensky.
Someone criticizes Russia's invasion of Ukraine, oh that must mean they blindly support our MIC.
Oh someone presents facts I cant argue, it must be western propaganda.

There are more than two sides, you guys just need to stop acting like you are neutral or unbiased.

 

[AM64]

Looking on target to hit 100K by the New Year.

 

[AM64]

They didn't just fight against the Soviet Union. They fought against Poles and other groups as well. It's also well documented that some of the worst acts committed during the Holocaust happened in Ukraine.

The Russians did their bit against humanity, too. Maybe you are really saying Slavs in general are a little more on the blood thirsty side of the spectrum? However, the events you are talking about are well in the past and were inspired by the SS. None of it has to do with Russia recently invading Ukraine or annexing some other states without the will to fight back.

 

[Velo Vol]

wut

 

[LouderVol]

What do you mean Ukraine was not ready for it? I thought they have been whooping Russian butt from the beginning. Sounds like they are an elite fighting force. Remember there are all these dead Russians and barely any Ukrainians have lost their lives.

Again you have assigned arguments to me I havent made.

They havent been whooping butt. They have been hanging on. I mean maybe since their counteroffensive they have been kicking butt, but certainly not before that. Ukraine has far exceeded my expectations. I fully expected this to be the occupation part of the conflict, not standing at the starting line part.

I have multiple times compared this to a P5 school, Russia, playing a G5/Div 2 team too close because they didnt take them seriously. And it's why I have been saying the russians should be using shock and Awe. The longer they let the scrappy underdog stick around the harder the fight is going to be. If Russia had really whooped Ukraine in the first half they could have put in their scrubs in the second half. Instead Russia is having to call in all their banged up starters to play that they were trying to save.

I have also talked with ND40 and AM64 about how I would expect Ukraines losses to be worse than Russias. To me Ukraines losses, 100k+, feels right. Russia being any where close to 100k losses, I have them being around 90k, so less than repeated graphic posted daily here, feels like worse losses than they should have. Meaning russia isnt as good as I thought, or Ukraine is better than I thought. As always it's probably a little of column A and a little of Column B.

To further show how I can be more neutral than you, I still think Russia launches an effective offensive in the new year, probably February. They take a good bit of ground. You guys will claim imminent victory, the few Ukrainian believers will talk it down. And we will all still be in this thread in 6 months because even that offensive wont be enough to end the war.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The Russians did their bit against humanity, too. Maybe you are really saying Slavs in general are a little more on the blood thirsty side of the spectrum? However, the events you are talking about are well in the past and were inspired by the SS. None of it has to do with Russia recently invading Ukraine or annexing some other states without the will to fight back.

The Soviets

 

[LouderVol]

You remember wrong. This war started when Kiev moved against Eastern Ukraine after government buildings in the Donbas were seized by protesters after the coup. Then proceeded to bomb the Donbas into oblivion the next 8 years..

Let’s not forget that.

Into oblivion? Where less than .1% of the population was killed? I am not one to diminish war, but you are way over selling.

Name any independence movement that has been peaceful? Even the Vatican didnt gain its independence peacefully. I mean maybe one of those micro nations did. But look at the Kurds in Syria. Syria was right on top of them, and Russia was willing to jump in to help put the Kurds down.

It's a rebellion. Every nation is going to fight any one that rebels. If they didnt want to fight and face your oblivion they should have stayed and tried the legal means of recourse available to them.

 

[LouderVol]

You seem to forget all of the trouble the Georgians and Ukrainians have caused them.

As far as Russia is concerned those are internal matters. Because they are totally not the USSR.

 

[LouderVol]

So they negotiated in bad faith. They were ceasefire agreements... not arm one side to the teeth agreements.

Russia's invasion says they werent negotiating in good faith either. You dont spontaneously invade. It takes months and years of preparation.

 

[LouderVol]

What finally pushed you over the edge? Babies in incubators? Weapons of mass destruction? Nigerien yellow cake? Bin Laden's burial at sea? "f*** the EU"? White helmets? Assad gassed his own people? Russia collusion? Las Vegas shooter narrative? Chinese wet markets? Double masks? "safe and effective"?

I havent heard the questionable-ness of Bin Ladens sea burial? What's the angle there?

 

[norrislakevol]

Again you have assigned arguments to me I havent made.

They havent been whooping butt. They have been hanging on. I mean maybe since their counteroffensive they have been kicking butt, but certainly not before that. Ukraine has far exceeded my expectations. I fully expected this to be the occupation part of the conflict, not standing at the starting line part.

I have multiple times compared this to a P5 school, Russia, playing a G5/Div 2 team too close because they didnt take them seriously. And it's why I have been saying the russians should be using shock and Awe. The longer they let the scrappy underdog stick around the harder the fight is going to be. If Russia had really whooped Ukraine in the first half they could have put in their scrubs in the second half. Instead Russia is having to call in all their banged up starters to play that they were trying to save.

I have also talked with ND40 and AM64 about how I would expect Ukraines losses to be worse than Russias. To me Ukraines losses, 100k+, feels right. Russia being any where close to 100k losses, I have them being around 90k, so less than repeated graphic posted daily here, feels like worse losses than they should have. Meaning russia isnt as good as I thought, or Ukraine is better than I thought. As always it's probably a little of column A and a little of Column B.

To further show how I can be more neutral than you, I still think Russia launches an effective offensive in the new year, probably February. They take a good bit of ground. You guys will claim imminent victory, the few Ukrainian believers will talk it down. And we will all still be in this thread in 6 months because even that offensive wont be enough to end the war.

Solid post and I agree with just about all of it. Ukrainian losses will most certainly be greater with civilian casualties thrown in. There have been high combat losses on both sides, though we will never know the true number. This has been a very, very bloody war to this point and we are not even a year in yet. When does it end? How does it end?

 

[LouderVol]

Solid post and I agree with just about all of it. Ukrainian losses will most certainly be greater with civilian casualties thrown in. There have been high combat losses on both sides, though we will never know the true number. This has been a very, very bloody war to this point and we are not even a year in yet. When does it end? How does it end?

I am not including civilians in my estimated losses.