War in Ukraine

[LouderVol]

That's a problem though. If the weather is halfway decent and without knockout air defenses, all those tanks are simply sitting ducks for somebody with airpower or even good artillery and drone spotters. No lessons learned from Iraq? It's the same with a lot of the stuff the Navy is floating. The world is still trying to fight wars with methodology from the last war and overwhelm it with technology. If nothing else, Ukraine is a real lab for learning what works today ... but maybe not even tomorrow. The only winners are the people selling weapons and developing new generations of stuff.

Here's a question that I've never seen discussed. What happens when we finally completely automate warfare? What's the meaning if the losses aren't personal? Do wars just continue on with casualties on the civilian side - whether intended or just "bad luck". Do we return to bombing cities with missiles and robot bombers to kill and maim the innocent with no military lives at stake? Do we keep developing more and more complex and expensive equipment that you can't keep operating until one side goes broke or the population revolts over the cost? When does the BS of developing overpriced overly complex equipment sitting on the ground because it's too complex to keep in the air or on the battlefield in place of larger numbers of less complex machines end? It's not just the military; look at auto racing like F1 - those cars might as well be drones. Look at collegiate sports. We are the problem; the military procurement and development is simply a garish display of our inability to reign in our technological lust.

I think you are correct about automated war. I posted it earlier, but..."its a good thing war is so terrible, est we would grow too fond of it". We will grow even more fond of it with the automated drones doing war. It will become a spectator sport. People will have their favorite nation they watch use toys to kill whichever "others" we come up with.

I could even see it becoming a tool to keep your own population in check, and not even used on other nations.

 

[VolStrom]

It pisses me off to no end that we finally got out of all the endless wars that we've been involved in for 60 years, and along comes Ukraine. The politicians seem to think that the US is behind them because we're "defending" democracy and none of our soldiers are dying. I'm sick to death of us supplying a war machine with insatiable amounts of money. Let's just arm ourselves to the teeth with weapons and sit back and let the rest of the world fend for themselves.

 

[TVOLS]

M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine

 

[MG1968]

If that were the case, you wouldn't have seen all of this hand wringing from Germany over the past week or so about sending tanks. Ir for that matter, since mo one is scared of Russia, what is stopping the US from just jumping in directly right now and cut the bull$#it.

Fighting by proxy is cheaper.

 

[AM64]

Lol. I’d guess your scheme is what Putin would play if he ever wanted to act like he cared about corruption. One of these asshats was driving around in a new mid tier Porsche

Just a mid tier Porsche. Obviously political graft is taking a back seat to sports graft these days if cars are any measure of income. Entertainment obviously pays well in that respect ... banking and investment and the corporate world too. Just read that the daily income for a Disney exec who lasted a few months was well into the six digits ... that's right something well over $100K/day.

 

[AM64]

I think you are correct about automated war. I posted it earlier, but..."its a good thing war is so terrible, est we would grow too fond of it". We will grow even more fond of it with the automated drones doing war. It will become a spectator sport. People will have their favorite nation they watch use toys to kill whichever "others" we come up with.

I could even see it becoming a tool to keep your own population in check, and not even used on other nations.

Just less bloody than the old Roman games ... and available on TV.

 

[FLVOL_79]

You say that like they intend to pay for them. How about we keep our expensive toys for ourselves.

We got M1's just sitting in storage that there is no real use for. We could recycle them. Or we could send them to kill Russians. Killing Russians is the more ecofriendly route.

 

[VolStrom]

M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine

The Chinese downloaded that from TikTok 10 years ago.

 

[AM64]

Looks like Ukraine is finally pulling out of Soledar.

This was surely the final lynchpin in the Ukrainian defense. Their collapse is imminent after the lost the very strategic town.

Can wait to read Ras, and Donjo talking about the masterful Ukrainian strategy to fall back to save lives. Since it was such a big deal for the Russians to lose that minor little village called Kherson.

Ukraine forces pull back from Donbas town after onslaught

"The Ukrainian army retreated from the salt mining town of Soledar to “preserve the lives of personnel,” Serhii Cherevatyi, a spokesperson for Ukraine’s forces in the east, told The Associated Press"

And I wonder what those same two think about the MSM posting something negative for Ukraine....

This is a very long article that covers probably too many topics, but it included this interesting point. Your article relates Soledar as part of the Bakhmut mess.

After several months of bloody, brutal fighting that has cost a lot of Ukrainian lives and equipment, U.S. and Western officials are urging Kyiv to shift its focus from the eastern city of Bakhmut and to prioritize instead a potential offensive in the south, using a different style of fighting that takes advantage of the billions of dollars in military equipment recently committed by Western allies, U.S. and Ukrainian officials told CNN.

Ukraine Situation Report: Kyiv Claims New Combat Aircraft Has Been Determined

 

[Volsdeep4]

Send equipment not money.

 

[Paper_Towel]

The Abrams are not coming from current stocks but new orders from the production line so they won't be available for awhile. So right now only Challengers and Leopards are on the way. Sweden said they are open to supplying their Stridsvagn 122 (which is based on the Leopard) to Ukraine as well.

Wonder if they're going to be M1A2Ks. Surely to god you don't send SEPv3s, right?

I'd be pissed if I was in any ABCT not in 1st Cav.

 

[BreatheUT]

LOL

They are just aligning their corruption with ours and western Europe's.

The delusion of some. You have to wonder if they're making a buck or if they just like war. Some of this money will return in the form of campaign donations giving an advantage to certain politicians and enriching cronies.

 

[Paper_Towel]

I hope we unload our woodland camo M1's to Ukraine so they can finally do what they were designed to do. Kill Russians.

You should see the SEPv3s in woodland. Things of beauty.

 

[VolStrom]

I can't believe people here. We must arm Ukraine to the max for democracy!

 

[hog88]

Send equipment not money.

Equipment costs money, our money.

 

[VolStrom]

We got M1's just sitting in storage that there is no real use for. We could recycle them. Or we could send them to kill Russians. Killing Russians is the more ecofriendly route.

Why the F are you so hell-bent on killing Russians? This entire conflict is another Vietnam. Any representative or Senator that supports it needs to be voted out of office.

 

[Volsdeep4]

Equipment costs money, our money.

Already spent money that can be accounted for. Not cash that can get lost

 

[hog88]

Already spent money that can be accounted for. Not cash that can get lost

How about we sell them weapons and equipment and not give them anything but our well wishes? Let Europe pay for this if they want to.

 

[AM64]

Why the F are you so hell-bent on killing Russians? This entire conflict is another Vietnam. Any representative or Senator that supports it needs to be voted out of office.

Think about that Vietnam comparison a minute. We certainly lost in a number of ways. That made the Soviet Union and China the winners because they backed Vietnam with little investment in personnel (we do know they cheated). Sometimes you take your wins however you can get them.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Why the F are you so hell-bent on killing Russians? This entire conflict is another Vietnam. Any representative or Senator that supports it needs to be voted out of office.

Raised in the 80s man!

But I am not hell bent on killing Ruskies. My fighting days are 20 years behind me. More Gravy Seal than Navy Seal nowadays.

 

[Sgt_Nick_Fury]

You do realize you are using a stooge news outlet? It's deplorable in any case, but have you looked in your own backyard lately? Our government is full of the same kind of stuff; many of the houses seem as lavish, but maybe our congress critters are a little less ostentatious on the cars. At least Ukraine has had a mass resignation ... we haven't. The entire soviet union was riddled with this kind of corruption, and it doesn't die easily. Spain was as corrupt as you can get when it colonized virtually an entire hemisphere south of our border; that was centuries ago and all of those places are still corrupt. China mastered corruption long before that even, and they are still masters of deceit and corruption, but our corporate, investment, and government "leaders" had no problem at all crawling in bed with them. Not excusing anybody for this crap, but don't single out one place and ignore the rest.

Zero Hedge > CNN;MSNBC;ABC;CBS;FOX;REUTERS;NYT;WP etc etc.... is it biased? absolutely. Does it have some ties to Eastern European bias? Yes but mostly Eastern European Americans, and very much Wallstreet buisiness view. Calling things "deplorable" is a badge of honor at any rate. Please link to me the saintly harbingers of truthiness you feel I shoul be reading alone without bothering to hear any difference of opinion.

I also won't argue about the corruption in DC pretty sure the deep-state takes the current crown for corruption, I will not argue that the Soviet Union was/is riddled with corruption either.. after all that is what the Ukraine and Russia are are two cancerous Soviet husk shells ran by ex KGB, neither is particularly more moral or trustworthy then the other, and both use disinformation as an art form. I won't argue about Spain, China, France, the UK, or pretty much any other corrupt government.....(all are) This is however a thread about Ukraine, and therefore this is an article about Ukraine. Also it is the only current govt getting this level of Billions of our aid while Americans are being crushed by the post covid economy.... Not really sure what point you think you were making, but it only reinforces why we shouldn't be sending blank checks to corrupt government via our own corrupt government getting laundered kickbacks. More particularly when it SHOULD be raising alarm bells as an obvious geopolitical trap meant to grind up our military resources yet again. After a couple of decades of pointless wars.

 

[Sgt_Nick_Fury]

Raised in the 80s man!

Then you should be bent on commies. Right now there are more commies here then in any ex Soviet State. But yeah I don't trust the Russian goose steppers either.

 

[volfanhill]

Sell equipment not money.

FIFY

 

[AM64]

Zero Hedge > CNN;MSNBC;ABC;CBS;FOX;REUTERS;NYT;WP etc etc.... is it biased? absolutely. Does it have some ties to Eastern European bias? Yes but mostly Eastern European Americans, and very much Wallstreet buisiness view. Calling things "deplorable" is a badge of honor at any rate. Please link to me the saintly harbingers of truthiness you feel I shoul be reading alone without bothering to hear any difference of opinion.

I also won't argue about the corruption in DC pretty sure the deep-state takes the current crown for corruption, I will not argue that the Soviet Union was/is riddled with corruption either.. after all that is what the Ukraine and Russia are are two cancerous Soviet husk shells ran by ex KGB, neither is particularly more moral or trustworthy then the other, and both use disinformation as an art form. I won't argue about Spain, China, France, the UK, or pretty much any other corrupt government.....(all are) This is however a thread about Ukraine, and therefore this is an article about Ukraine. Also it is the only current govt getting this level of Billions of our aid while Americans are being crushed by the post covid economy.... Not really sure what point you think you were making, but it only reinforces why we shouldn't be sending blank checks to corrupt government via our own corrupt government getting laundered kickbacks. More particularly when it SHOULD be raising alarm bells as an obvious geopolitical trap meant to grind up our military resources yet again. After a couple of decades of pointless wars.

We shouldn't be giving money to any foreign country unless it is some kind of debt we owe. I get that money is easier to move than goods ... and easier to return in favors, too. I'm pretty much against most foreign aid and doubt that it does that much in most cases. We've donated enough to places south of our border as well as many other places around the globe to know it's often not effective. Either help with hands on knowledge and supplies or stay home ... and sure as hell be smart enough to know when staying home is the better option. Ukraine is at least willing to use what we send to fight - a lot better choice than all the losers we've been supporting.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Then you should be bent on commies. Right now there are more commies here then in any ex Soviet State. But yeah I don't trust the Russian goose steppers either.

Difference is..those are "American" commies. Gotta believe there is hope for them.