War in Ukraine

[apevol]

on the last I agree. and its why Russia had to act when it did. they are bullies. they don't like it when others stand up to them. They saw the rising Ukrainian power and knew they had to strike before they were prepared. They can't stand the idea of one of their perceived lessers being able to tell them no.

my question would be, when would you have ended our support? never given them anything back in 2014? or maybe reshaped how we equipped them, like my make-them-buy-it plan? Or should we have just cut off aid in Feb 2022?

I dunno what the hell the right thing to do is now. Should have never let it get to this point. No overtures back in the day about eventual NATO membership. Should've just let russia keep them under her thumb. Ukraine genuinely is "different" for Russia than these other former soviet places. Being the birthplace of russia, it just means too much to them. Sad Putin chose to encourage the bigotry against them.

I think at some point, way back whenever it would have been possible to get over the bad blood from wwii, and before, even the soviets betraying the anarchists. Those two peoples shouldn't hate each other and I don't think we had any business taking sides, and definitely had no business making the ukrainians think we had their backs. Put us in a hell of a spot now, looking like scumbags if we stop.

**** it. the whole things sad and if we'd had anything approaching a real statesman the last few decades, I don't think this happens.

 

[Velo Vol]

this is why I think we should have stayed out of ukraine completely. After failing to secure a quick victory, central asia has become destabilized. Whatever you think about russia, theyve held the region together for a long time and I'd rather they do it than us. Yes, they should have never gone into ukraine, but its nonsense to think they wouldn't. That piece of land just means too much to too many russians, and if you pay attention at all, beneath the veneer of brotherhood, there has long been bigotry in russia against ukrainians.

What would be the bad consequence if central Asia fell apart, whatever you mean by that?

 

[tvolsfan]

What would be the bad consequence if central Asia fell apart, whatever you mean by that?

Plenty of countries have demonstrated an ability to govern themselves after separation from Moscow. In fact, they tend to become richer and more democratic.

Enough with this crap about Russia being the security guarantor for the region and ethnic Russians. They’re simply trying to steal territory their leader is upset about losing.

 

[Velo Vol]

Plenty of countries have demonstrated an ability to govern themselves after separation from Moscow. In fact, they tend to become richer and more democratic.

I'm not sure where specifically he's talking about.

 

[Velo Vol]

Natural gas. Tears in Kremlin Land (and here).

 

[evillawyer]

Plenty of countries have demonstrated an ability to govern themselves after separation from Moscow. In fact, they tend to become richer and more democratic.

Enough with this crap about Russia being the security guarantor for the region and ethnic Russians. They’re simply trying to steal territory their leader is upset about losing.

There's a map I saw somewhere showing the distribution of Ukraine's natural resources. By far, the richest resources are in the Donbas. And Crimea is strategically important for Russia's Black Sea operations. It's all a landgrab. The NATO gripe is pure BS.

Found it:

 

[evillawyer]

George Santos would just be a regular dude in Russia. Honestly, the amount of lying on Russian TV must make Fox blush.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The BBC didn't say 60 percent more max, that image alone indicates it's a conservative estimate. That account literally just lied about the image it quoted, and you were silly enough to cite it.


Here's the actual BBC article in Russian indicating 24,000 is the most conservative estimate and total casualties probably exceed 110,000.

Без тренировки - на фронт: что известно о потерях России в Украине за 11 месяцев войны - BBC News Русская служба

You're going to have to do better than that.

No silly. The 20k-24k is the max KIA (killed in action). The 110k number is the total of killed and injured ("irretrievable losses"). The universal ratio of KIA to injured is usually 3:1 to 5:1 on the high side. But if you could actually read, you would have known that. It is in clear black and white.

Russia's total irretrievable losses (that is, the number of those who are out of action due to injury, death or missing) can be at least 110,000 people.

 

[AM64]

I am not sure if it's the right term, but Soledar is a suburb of Bahkmut. The argument seems to be that it let's the Russians control one side of Bahkmut as well as its front. So now they can threaten the supplies and reinforcements coming in. It does theoretically.

But my understanding is that the Russians are less than 5km from Bakhmut from the front. And at the closest Soledar is from Bahkmut is 8 km. So unless I am missing something it doesnt seem like this adds anything new to the equation.

And again when you look at the war, they have been fighting for Bahkmut since at least August. I went back through this thread. Ras and crew were crowing about the impending collapse going back then. So I would assume by now Ukraine has prepared contingencies if Bahkmut does fall. Unless the Ukrainians are as incompetent as the Russians this wont be some great break thru that leads to the capture of a lot of territory.

I'm thinking that some outside strategists are trying to convince Ukraine to give up Bahkmut/Soledar for now and move on to a different area where they aren't bogged down and can make some real gains.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'm thinking that some outside strategists are trying to convince Ukraine to give up Bahkmut/Soledar for now and move on to a different area where they aren't bogged down and can make some real gains.

Which would be smart. Preserve those lives and equipment.

The so-called experts are beginning to understand the value of a retreat and not staying and fighting for every inch of territory when it is not advantageous. Just criminal to throw away lives like they did in Azovstal and Severodonetsk-Lysychansk.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Unless the Ukrainians are as incompetent as the Russians this wont be some great break thru that leads to the capture of a lot of territory.

Bakhmut is so trivial that Zelensky (allegedly) went to the front line town in the heat of combat, got the soldiers to sign a flag and then flew it to DC when he have his speech to Congress.

You are only gaslighting yourself not anyone else.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

'I've got one leg, I've got no feet, I see through one eye': Fox News correspondent Benjamin Hall returns to live TV ten months after he was ambushed in Ukraine - with rousing message to 'never give up'

A Fox News reporter has returned to the air 10 months after narrowly surviving an attack in Ukraine that killed two colleagues.

Benjamin Hall, 40, suffered devastating injuries when his team came under a Russian barrage of shells outside Kyiv on March 14.

Veteran Fox cameraman Pierre Zakrzewski, a 55-year-old Irishman, and local Ukrainian journalist Oleksandra Kuvshynova, 24, were killed.

On Thursday, Hall, a British-born father of three young daughters, made his first live television appearance since he was evacuated from Ukraine, and told his Fox News colleagues he felt 'more confident than I ever have.'

Hall urged others in similar situations to 'never give up' and said adversity could be overcome 'no matter how painful something is.'

Benjamin Hall, 40, appeared on live television on Thursday for the first time since his March injury

Fox News correspondent Benjamin Hall is back on live television 10 months after he was almost killed | Daily Mail Online

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

But my understanding is that the Russians are less than 5km from Bakhmut from the front. And at the closest Soledar is from Bahkmut is 8 km. So unless I am missing something it doesnt seem like this adds anything new to the equation.

The only road left open for the Ukrainians to exit is the road coming from the west, and the Russians are moving in to close that off pretty soon. Also, it appears that the Ukrainians have had to move in reinforcements from Kherson and Zaporozhye areas... which has now left an opening for the Russians to start offensives in those areas in the West/Dnepre River. Russians also closing in on Siversk to the northeast of the Bakhmut-Soledar area.

Taking Bakhmut will only leave Kramatorsk and a hand full of other small towns before Donetsk is fully liberated.

If the Ukrainians were smart, they would try to negotiate after Donetsk is mopped up and the Russians clean up in Zaporozhye and Kherson. That keeps the Russians east of the Dneipr and "buys them time". I'm not sure the Russians would trust any ceasefire agreement at this point, but it is their only option right now.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

There's a map I saw somewhere showing the distribution of Ukraine's natural resources. By far, the richest resources are in the Donbas. And Crimea is strategically important for Russia's Black Sea operations. It's all a landgrab. The NATO gripe is pure BS.

Found it:

And again, if it was just about land and resources, Kazakhstan would have been far more land and resources.

Crimea was never going to be given up to the Kyiv regime precisely because of their Black Sea fleet. You all need to forget about Crimea.

 

[AM64]

Which would be smart. Preserve those lives and equipment.

The so-called experts are beginning to understand the value of a retreat and not staying and fighting for every inch of territory when it is not advantageous. Just criminal to throw away lives like they did in Azovstal and Severodonetsk-Lysychansk.

It's a lot like bypassing some Pacific islands the Japanese held in WW2; sometimes it's better not to fight at every opportunity - pick your battles.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

It's a lot like bypassing some Pacific islands the Japanese held in WW2; sometimes it's better not to fight at every opportunity - pick your battles.

Which is why the Kherson offensive they had in September was devastating. It was a great PR victory and bad optics for Russia. But look at the cost. They gained Kherson on the right bank/west bank, but had trouble administrating/controlling it. Plus they suffered heavy losses in the process.

 

[BeardedVol]

Which is why the Kherson offensive they had in September was devastating. It was a great PR victory and bad optics for Russia. But look at the cost. They gained Kherson on the right bank/west bank, but had trouble administrating/controlling it. Plus they suffered heavy losses in the process.

Russia giving up Kherson and the right bank of the Dnipro is Russia giving up on taking Odessa and forming a land bridge to Transnistria.

It was a nigh impossible pipe dream when they held Kherson, now it is truly impossible.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Are you suggesting Pete should have been sec def?

Whoever he needed to. Or have his wife husband do it instead. Don't matter to me.

 

[FLVOL_79]

George Santos would just be a regular dude in Russia. Honestly, the amount of lying on Russian TV must make Fox blush.

The Russian news networks are 100% state sponsored and controlled.

 

[zeppelin128]

 

[tvolsfan]

No silly. The 20k-24k is the max KIA (killed in action). The 110k number is the total of killed and injured ("irretrievable losses"). The universal ratio of KIA to injured is usually 3:1 to 5:1 on the high side. But if you could actually read, you would have known that. It is in clear black and white.

That’s… what I said.

Are you okay? Because it seems like you’re struggling.

 

[LouderVol]

Bakhmut is so trivial that Zelensky (allegedly) went to the front line town in the heat of combat, got the soldiers to sign a flag and then flew it to DC when he have his speech to Congress.

You are only gaslighting yourself not anyone else.

Or you are putting way more emphasis on it than its strategic value. Its value is that is where the Russians have been held for almost 6 months. And again I am not sure why you think Ukraine should give up land after losing lives when Russia has been losing lives to try and take it. The russians could easily try and find a softer target. After 6 months surely they could have found it.

Even if Russia is losing less than Ukraine, after six months that's a lot of resources tied up in this town.

 

[illumiVOLi]

George Santos would just be a regular dude in Russia. Honestly, the amount of lying on Russian TV must make Fox blush.

Thanks to you, the Democrats and MIC lovers like Mike Pompeo and the rest of the military elite are bringing us to ww3. Biden said himself tanks would mean ww3. You and the ilk like you are willing to weaken the US military to support Ukraine. Can you really rationalize into a full explanation as to what the eff we are doing over there? Not a logical chance you can even if you are an evillawyer and can whip that forked tongue of yours. Matter of fact never met a lawyer who wasn’t a scum sucker.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

That’s… what I said.

What you said was a distortion of what I had said and what the original tweet was saying. We were specifically talking about KIAs. In your feeble attempt to debunk the story, you conflated the KIA number with total casualties.

 

[illumiVOLi]

What you said was a distortion of what I had said and what the original tweet was saying. We were specifically talking about KIAs. In your feeble attempt to debunk the story, you conflated the KIA number with total casualties.

Christ almighty you two. Disgusting. Eat up with stupidity. Y’all are literally arguing over peoples dead bodies.