War in Ukraine

[BeardedVol]

so no end

Russia's economy is in shambles. They can only prop it up for so long with their sovereign wealth fund. Coupled with the brain drain from people fleeing the country, companies pulling out, and lack of access to technology, it's just a matter of time.

 

[illumiVOLi]

We were paid back for most of the material under lend lease 1941. Can you find a figure as to how much Ukraine currently owes us under Lend/Lease 2022?

Ukraine ain’t going to pay back jack $hit. Our grandkids grandkids will be paying for this bs. Go eff yourself bearded and the rest of you saber rattling morons

 

[evillawyer]

Is that the Eastern Europeans on the streets or is this the Eastern Europeans in the leadership class that are puppets of the US?

Czech protesters call for new government, direct gas talks with Russia

Cool story from 5 months ago, bro. Nice knowing the Czechs were concerned about energy before the winter.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Anyone know what our definition of "the end" is? Does it only mean complete withdrawal of all Russian gained territory and full cessation (whatever that means) of Russian aggression towards Ukraine?

So what should we do? We agreed to send aid if attacked. So hold our word or not?

 

[volinbham]

Russia's economy is in shambles. They can only prop it up for so long with their sovereign wealth fund. Coupled with the brain drain from people fleeing the country, companies pulling out, and lack of access to technology, it's just a matter of time.

10 months ago this was the same message plus Putin had various forms of cancer and some strokes and was soon going to die.

Until there is no Putin there will be no full cessation and complete withdrawal.

 

[VolinMichigan]

It would be interesting if Russian nuked themselves with faulty old equipment while trying to get Ukraine. If they know at all what they are doing the warheads wouldn't detonate, but it could still be a nasty mess.

Take a look at the state of the equipment they rolled out for this Ukraine invasion and tell me you have confidence in their maintenance of their nuclear arsenal. Accidentally nuking themselves would be the most Russian thing ever.

 

[NorthDallas40]

:sham elections:

Well you should be well versed on that

 

[volinbham]

So what should we do? We agreed to send aid if attacked. So hold our word or not?

I was just asking if we have a plan and more importantly a definition of victory.

Agreeing to send aid and continually escalating the aid are not the same thing.

It appears we are going to continue ramping up aid (beyond propping up the Ukrainian economy now with borrowed money) until Putin decides to stop all hostilities towards Ukraine. Could be years and years.

 

[illumiVOLi]

So what should we do? We agreed to send aid if attacked. So hold our word or not?

It’s not our fight. You think Putin is loving sitting back watching us spend ourselves into an oblivion? He’s been running a country through years of major sanctions. He can wait us out. He knows Biden is a tool.

 

[volfanhill]

10 months ago this was the same message plus Putin had various forms of cancer and some strokes and was soon going to die.

Until there is no Putin there will be no full cessation and complete withdrawal.

Brain drain wasn't part of the conversation ten months ago

Having to prop up the economy through the wealth fund was not a reality ten months ago it was the projection. And here we are. Projection came true

 

[Burhead]

It’s not our fight

Neither was it France's fight...

 

[volinbham]

Brain drain wasn't part of the conversation ten months ago

Having to prop up the economy through the wealth fund was not a reality ten months ago it was the projection. And here we are. Projection came true

so many projections have not



what is our definition of victory?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Cool story from 5 months ago, bro. Nice knowing the Czechs were concerned about energy before the winter.

The point is the people don't have an initial reflex to stand for Ukraine or stand against Russia.

The average person simply lives their own lives the best the can.

 

[illumiVOLi]

Neither was it France's fight...

Ok. So that makes you feel what we are doing is just fine and dandy? Russia didn’t attack us and Ukraine is not a NATO country. So can you tell me exactly what the United States specifically is doing in Ukraine that is beneficial to you and me?

 

[volinbham]

Neither was it France's fight...

I don't have a problem with us assisting - I'm asking if we have a definition of victory and is a pledge of unending (and implied increasing) aid wise policy

 

[volfanhill]

so many projections have not



what is our definition of victory?

Well that's why they are a projection. And so many have come true. Your question is legitimate and should be defined by the Biden administration. I doubt our definition matched Ukraines.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I was just asking if we have a plan and more importantly a definition of victory.

Agreeing to send aid and continually escalating the aid are not the same thing.

It appears we are going to continue ramping up aid (beyond propping up the Ukrainian economy now with borrowed money) until Putin decides to stop all hostilities towards Ukraine. Could be years and years.

I guess I’m trying to understand how we get to dictate what terms are acceptable. What pieces of territory we think Ukraine should cede.

I’m not in favor of sending one dollar in cash but yeah you’re likely right that we will send money. I believe we are obligated on the arms and I don’t see where we get to dictate what Ukraine’s vision of victory looks like. They’ve said take all territory back including Crimea. So let’s put tge means in their hands to fet that done as quickly as possible would seem most economical instead of dragging it out. If/when Ukraine says enough then we need to respect that.

 

[BeardedVol]

10 months ago this was the same message plus Putin had various forms of cancer and some strokes and was soon going to die.

Until there is no Putin there will be no full cessation and complete withdrawal.

The math is there. Based off companies that have ceased operation, and the price of commodities, we have a relatively good idea of the reality of Russia's economic state, regardless of what nonsense Russia tries to pedal, given that they stopped releasing trustworthy data months ago.
Leading Russian Economist Nikolayev: Russia Burning Through Its Finances At Alarming Rate, May Soon Have To Take Money From Citizens

 

[NorthDallas40]

so many projections have not



what is our definition of victory?

Again who are we to say what territory Ukraine has to cede?

 

[Burhead]

Ok. So that makes you feel what we are doing is just fine and dandy? Russia didn’t attack us and Ukraine is not a NATO country. So can you tell me exactly what the United States specifically is doing in Ukraine that is beneficial to you and me?

Degrading the capacity of Russian conventional forces as a threat to greater Europe for decades to come for pennies on the dollar and all without one American life lost.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Ok. So that makes you feel what we are doing is just fine and dandy? Russia didn’t attack us and Ukraine is not a NATO country. So can you tell me exactly what the United States specifically is doing in Ukraine that is beneficial to you and me?

Because we said we would aid them if they were attacked.

The Budapest Memorandum and U.S. Obligations

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I was just asking if we have a plan and more importantly a definition of victory.

Agreeing to send aid and continually escalating the aid are not the same thing.

It appears we are going to continue ramping up aid (beyond propping up the Ukrainian economy now with borrowed money) until Putin decides to stop all hostilities towards Ukraine. Could be years and years.

 

[AM64]

I've read it. And if your stance is based on honoring agreements I respect that. It's still not beneficial for the US, and I wish we would've never involved ourselves in the first place.

There's another way to look at that. Nobody (including non participants) wins a nuclear conflict; if by promising our support to remove nuclear weapons from one country, the price we pay in support would be worth it. Sooner or later, nuclear proliferation if not controlled, is going to lead a couple of hotheads into screwing up the world.

The other couple of points are that by minimizing super powers - like not allowing Russia to put the gang back together again, you minimize the risk of global war. And the world is a very much smaller place than it ever has been before; physically the US mainland had little to fear in conflicts like WW2; that's no longer the case. Isolationism in a world of ICBMs and bombers and subs with intercontinental range is a dead issue. If neither Russia nor Ukraine had nuclear warheads and means to deliver them, then this war of Russian aggression in Ukraine might truly be a European problem, but Russia is a nuclear power, has threatened their use, and that changes everything. Besides I thought we were the kind of people who don't sit back and watch the playground bully beat up the little kid.

 

[volinbham]

I guess I’m trying to understand how we get to dictate what terms are acceptable. What pieces of territory we think Ukraine should cede.

I’m not in favor of sending one dollar in cash but yeah you’re likely right that we will send money. I believe we are obligated on the arms and I don’t see where we get to dictate what Ukraine’s vision of victory looks like. They’ve said take all territory back including Crimea. So let’s put tge means in their hands to fet that done as quickly as possible would seem most economical instead of dragging it out. If/when Ukraine says enough then we need to respect that.

I disagree we are obligated on the arms - that obligation seems to be ever growing. No way we'd consider sending Abrahams 10 months ago or even 6 months ago.

If our role is to help bring the conflict to an end then we certainly can suggest terms - it's what always happens if there are peace negotiations but clearly that's not even on the table.

Finally, if we are trying to get this done as quickly as possible why not fully arm them?

My biggest concern is that Biden's recent trip set obligations that did not exist prior and they are unending/unbounded obligations that appear without conditions other than Ukraine fully defines when we can stop giving them aid.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I don't have a problem with us assisting - I'm asking if we have a definition of victory and is a pledge of unending (and implied increasing) aid wise policy

It absolutely isn’t wise. I just don’t understand how we can dictate what lane has to be ceded. So help them be as violent as possible and get it back as quick as possible. Everyone was slow to assist as we all thought it was a lost cause. There is no way I would have thought we’d be discussing this a year later. And seeing Ukraine dictate the fight also is pretty amazing.