War in Ukraine

[volinbham]

Again who are we to say what territory Ukraine has to cede?

so until Ukraine is satisfied we are obligated to provide unending aid?

not buying it

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The other couple of points are that by minimizing super powers - like not allowing Russia to put the gang back together again, you minimize the risk of global war. And the world is a very much smaller place than it ever has been before; physically the US mainland had little to fear in conflicts like WW2; that's no longer the case. Isolationism in a world of ICBMs and bombers and subs with intercontinental range is a dead issue. If neither Russia nor Ukraine had nuclear warheads and means to deliver them, then this war of Russian aggression in Ukraine might truly be a European problem, but Russia is a nuclear power, has threatened their use, and that changes everything. Besides I thought we were the kind of people who don't sit back and watch the playground bully beat up the little kid.

Nonsense.

 

[volinbham]

It absolutely isn’t wise. I just don’t understand how we can dictate what lane has to be ceded. So help them be as violent as possible and get it back as quick as possible. Everyone was slow to assist as we all thought it was a lost cause. There is no way I would have thought we’d be discussing this a year later. And seeing Ukraine dictate the fight also is pretty amazing.

it's not only one or the other

we can certainly have efforts to find an end to the war and we don't have to continually ramp up aid

on the other hand if end it as quick is possible then why not arm them to the teeth?

honestly I bet we are having this same conversation a year from now and Ukraine will be even more bombed out with more dead citizens

 

[NorthDallas40]

I disagree we are obligated on the arms - that obligation seems to be ever growing. No way we'd consider sending Abrahams 10 months ago or even 6 months ago.

If our role is to help bring the conflict to an end then we certainly can suggest terms - it's what always happens if there are peace negotiations but clearly that's not even on the table.

Finally, if we are trying to get this done as quickly as possible why not fully arm them?

My biggest concern is that Biden's recent trip set obligations that did not exist prior and they are unending/unbounded obligations that appear without conditions other than Ukraine fully defines when we can stop giving them aid.

Fine we disagree on arms. What they gave up has value, the third largest nuke stockpile in the world.

The formal US stance is the document is non binding also. It’s merely a political instrument. Why do they claim that? Because Yjraune claims it to be a full on international treaty by international law she has made a case for that. That is a much more foreboding stance for us.

And yes I agree that we should fully arm them. Hurry up and end it.

 

[volfanhill]

I guess I’m trying to understand how we get to dictate what terms are acceptable. What pieces of territory we think Ukraine should cede.

I’m not in favor of sending one dollar in cash but yeah you’re likely right that we will send money. I believe we are obligated on the arms and I don’t see where we get to dictate what Ukraine’s vision of victory looks like. They’ve said take all territory back including Crimea. So let’s put tge means in their hands to fet that done as quickly as possible would seem most economical instead of dragging it out. If/when Ukraine says enough then we need to respect that.

We get to dictate what terms are acceptable to us. I do think that should be defined by us.

 

[illumiVOLi]

Degrading the capacity of Russian conventional forces as a threat to greater Europe for decades to come for pennies on the dollar and all without one American life lost.

Yeah not buying that at all. Russia is going to “Russia” it’s just in their blood. To “leave it all up to Ukraine” puts us as sugar daddy for something to drag out for who knows how long and then it’s not just pennies any more

 

[volinbham]

Degrading the capacity of Russian conventional forces as a threat to greater Europe for decades to come for pennies on the dollar and all without one American life lost.

I can see cynically why it's good for us (though a destabilized Russia could bring it's own problems as we've seen over and over) but plenty of Ukrainian lives are being lost daily.

I don't have better answers but I can see that a slow "let Putin punch himself out" strategy is not without plenty of negative consequences for blood and treasure of Ukraine.

 

[NorthDallas40]

it's not only one or the other

we can certainly have efforts to find an end to the war and we don't have to continually ramp up aid

on the other hand if end it as quick is possible then why not arm them to the teeth?

honestly I bet we are having this same conversation a year from now and Ukraine will be even more bombed out with more dead citizens

We agree on arming them to the teeth. I can only guess that the west is trying to “not agitate” Russia while still sending weapons. It seems idiotic.

 

[NorthDallas40]

We get to dictate what terms are acceptable to us. I do think that should be defined by us.

I agree on that. And as @volinbham sajd we can express them in discussions. I do agree on that.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

10 months ago this was the same message plus Putin had various forms of cancer and some strokes and was soon going to die.

Until there is no Putin there will be no full cessation and complete withdrawal.

No Russian leader would allow NATO to build an army on their border and attack their comrades anymore than a US leaders (outside of Obama or Biden) would allow Mexico to get arms from Russia or China or have Mexicans killing Americans on our border.

If you think getting rid of Putin is the answer, would you want to deal with Medvedev or the Russian communist party leader?

 

[NorthDallas40]

It’s not our fight. You think Putin is loving sitting back watching us spend ourselves into an oblivion? He’s been running a country through years of major sanctions. He can wait us out. He knows Biden is a tool.

Lol!

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I can see cynically why it's good for us (though a destabilized Russia could bring it's own problems as we've seen over and over) but plenty of Ukrainian lives are being lost daily.

I don't have better answers but I can see that a slow "let Putin punch himself out" strategy is not without plenty of negative consequences for blood and treasure of Ukraine.

The best answer was no NATO in Ukraine, a neutral status for Ukraine, Donbas remaining in Ukraine but having a certain level of autonomy and recognizing Crimea as part of the Russian Federation.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I can see cynically why it's good for us (though a destabilized Russia could bring it's own problems as we've seen over and over) but plenty of Ukrainian lives are being lost daily.

I don't have better answers but I can see that a slow "let Putin punch himself out" strategy is not without plenty of negative consequences for blood and treasure of Ukraine.

So on the highlighted. They are choosing to fight we aren’t making them. If it comes to that we are completely in the wrong.

 

[NorthDallas40]

The best answer was no NATO in Ukraine, a neutral status for Ukraine, Donbas remaining in Ukraine but having a certain level of autonomy and recognizing Crimea as part of the Russian Federation.

Go away kid the adults are talking.

 

[Burhead]

I can see cynically why it's good for us (though a destabilized Russia could bring it's own problems as we've seen over and over) but plenty of Ukrainian lives are being lost daily.

I don't have better answers but I can see that a slow "let Putin punch himself out" strategy is not without plenty of negative consequences for blood and treasure of Ukraine.

I still believe that until Putin knows defeat he will keep pushing he has been on a winning streak his entire leadership tenure. He still had far bigger plans (or even still has who knows) but only stiff Ukrainian resistance is putting a stop to those. My philosophy has always been to fight and contain Russia here in Ukraine where the stakes of direct confrontation is not high. I don't want to wake up one day with Russian tanks rolling into the Baltic's and we're forced to fight.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yeah not buying that at all. Russia is going to “Russia” it’s just in their blood. To “leave it all up to Ukraine” puts us as sugar daddy for something to drag out for who knows how long and then it’s not just pennies any more

To the last drop of Ukrainian blood or for ever long it takes.

 

[BeardedVol]

No Russian leader would allow NATO to build an army on their border and attack their comrades anymore than a US leaders (outside of Obama or Biden) would allow Mexico to get arms from Russia or China or have Mexicans killing Americans on our border.

If you think getting rid of Putin is the answer, would you want to deal with Medvedev or the Russian communist party leader?

There is currently no permanent NATO troop presence in any former Warsaw Pact countries that have joined NATO.

That's only going to change now after Russia escalated the 8-year old invasion of Ukraine.

There's going to be a permanent multi-national NATO troop presence on the Russian border, along with an additional 832 miles of border with a NATO country, and there's nothing that Putin can do to stop it.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I still believe that until Putin knows defeat he will keep pushing he has been on a winning streak his entire leadership tenure. He still had far bigger plans (or even still has who knows) but only stiff Ukrainian resistance is putting a stop to those. My philosophy has always been to fight and contain Russia here in Ukraine where the stakes of direct confrontation is not high. I don't want to wake up one day with Russian tanks rolling into the Baltic's and we're forced to fight.

Putin is winning and it has never been in doubt. Hell, even some of you have never really believed Ukraine could "win". Ukraine winning has not been your talking point. It has been to degrade Russia's military... not Ukrainian victory.

Problem is that Russia has a real economy and a real military industrial complex and not Facebook, propaganda and woke ideology.

 

[Burhead]

Putin is winning and it has never been in doubt. Hell, even some of you have never really believed Ukraine could "win". Ukraine winning has not been your talking point. It has been to degrade Russia's military... not Ukrainian victory.

Problem is that Russia has a real economy and a real military industrial complex and not Facebook, propaganda and woke ideology.

Thankfully the Ukrainians have a say in the matter.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I still believe that until Putin knows defeat he will keep pushing he has been on a winning streak his entire leadership tenure. He still had far bigger plans (or even still has who knows) but only stiff Ukrainian resistance is putting a stop to those. My philosophy has always been to fight and contain Russia here in Ukraine where the stakes of direct confrontation is not high. I don't want to wake up one day with Russian tanks rolling into the Baltic's and we're forced to fight.

Honestly if you wanted to pick a scenario this is perfect. A proxy war with a capable proxy motivated to win and repel Russia without a single US military casualty at stake. And terms not forcing our military response (article 5). As long as Ukraine wants to defend their home I do think we should assist with arms as we can. But war weariness will wear our citizens down eventually. If this WW1 trench warfare goes on for another year support here and in Europe will fade. Which is more reason to arm them to the teeth now.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Putin is winning and it has never been in doubt. Hell, even some of you have never really believed Ukraine could "win". Ukraine winning has not been your talking point. It has been to degrade Russia's military... not Ukrainian victory.

Problem is that Russia has a real economy and a real military industrial complex and not Facebook, propaganda and woke ideology.

One year anniversary of a 3 day special military operation with an overmatched foe

 

[Burhead]

Honestly if you wanted to pick a scenario this is perfect. A proxy war with a capable proxy motivated to win and repel Russia without a single US military casualty at stake. And terms not forcing our military response (article 5). As long as Ukraine wants to defend their home I do think we should assist with arms as we can. But war weariness will wear our citizens down eventually. If this WW1 trench warfare goes on for another year support here and in Europe will fade. Which is more reason to arm them to the teeth now.

Again our investment in Ukraine has been the most worthwhile expenditure of American aid in forever.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Again our investment in Ukraine has been the most worthwhile expenditure of American aid in forever.

we will never see this ROI again. Not even with all the money we’ve spent on Israel.

 

[BeardedVol]

so until Ukraine is satisfied we are obligated to provide unending aid?

not buying it

We're obligated to guarantee their territorial sovereignty that is internationally recognized including by Russia who did so in 1991, and reaffirmed in 1994, and in 1997.

That was the price of Ukraine giving up the Soviet nuclear weapons in the country.

 

[AM64]

I thought the point was that Russia conducted a three day special military operation in Donbas to relieve the Ukrainian oppression of Russians subjugated by gay nazi death cults. Now you're telling me it's it's really about demilitarizing Ukraine and NATO.

Demilitarizing Ukraine could have worked. Russian troops have been absorbing a lot of stuff Ukraine sent their way. Unfortunately for Russia they apparently didn't expect other countries to keep Ukraine militarized by sending more munitions and delivery systems. Also didn't help a lot when Russian troops kept giving Ukraine more hardware.