War in Ukraine

[LouderVol]

First it was they arent taking Bakhmut fast enough, now they are taking it too fast (why would they close their trap). Too funny.

Russia is closing up Bakhmut because Ukraine has slowed the pour of reinforcements into it.

As for the rest, Russia isnt making big moves and hasnt since the start of the war. Why do you think they will change now? They move slowly and methodically, inflicting maximum casualties on Ukraine while preserving their own forces. It is not how the US fights a war, but it seems to be very successful for them in accomplishing their goals.

no. I don't believe Bakhmut is a trap by either side. Russia is closing it too slow because they have been trying since August. Continuously. Its not like they try, fail. sit there for 3 months, and try again. They are attacking literally every day. thats a ton of resources to expend, even if you want to believe they aren't losing many lives.

Russia made huge moves at the start of the war. they were trying to take Kiev and get Ukraine to capitulate quickly. thats a big move. they were trying to push towards Odessa, to the point where you guys were talking about Ukraine losing all of their Black Sea coast. thats a big move. they have deployed an extra 500k conscripts. thats a big move. Bakhmut was supposed to be the lynchpin in Ukraine's defense that was going to cause their collapse, that sounds like it should have been a big move. Russia hasn't been organized enough to make an actual big move that would change the war. they have attempted multiple of them, and failed so far.

i will definitely agree it is causing maximum casualties, but that's not a one sided sword, and it was definitely not what you guys were espousing at the start of the war. "most peaceful war ever", "Wont be as destructive as the way America fights".

and what goals has Russia accomplished? The "Nazis" are still in power. Ukraine is still being armed. NATO has gotten closer to Russia. They still don't control all of the areas they have claimed as Russian. This just sounds like yet another rhetoric change to cover for the realities of current events.

 

[Burhead]

You also failed to acknowledge the Russian population crisis as well. For each Russian male that dies in Ukraine that's less future Russians being born.

Russia has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world of 1.58 births per woman, which is also below the replacement rate of 2.1 births per woman. Russia also has one of the oldest populations in the world with an average age of 40.3 years, according to demographers.

Russian fertility rates fall to record lows on the back of a deteriorating economy and sanctions pressure

The war will not help those numbers even though Putin is committing ethnic cleansing by sending more minorities than the privileged sons of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

 

[LouderVol]

The wrong part is Ukraine's actions that led up to their Country being invaded. Seeing what has transpired over the last year plus, Russia has been proven correct in their self defense assessment for invading a belligerent neighbor.

so because Finland, and maybe Sweden, have/will join NATO in 2023, Russia is justified to invade Ukraine in 2022? forget 4D chess, you are resorting to time travel to try and justify the Russians. Also might need to look at a map, because Ukraine is not Finland or Sweden, nor particularly close to either.

and how the eff was Ukraine belligerent to Russia?

 

[Burhead]

so because Finland, and maybe Sweden, have/will join NATO in 2023, Russia is justified to invade Ukraine in 2022? forget 4D chess, you are resorting to time travel to try and justify the Russians. Also might need to look at a map, because Ukraine is not Finland or Sweden, nor particularly close to either.

and how the eff was Ukraine belligerent to Russia?

If anyone simply breathes in the direction of Russia they are being aggressive. Moscow can do no wrong, the West can do no right in their eyes.

 

[LouderVol]

If anyone simply breathes in the direction of Russia they are being aggressive. Moscow can do no wrong, the West can do no right in their eyes.

his only argument is going to be the fighting that was happening in Ukraine before the invasion. The parts of Ukraine that weren't part of Russia, or even claimed by Russia at the time. so again he is resorting to relative future actions (annexation) to justify deeds done in the past.

 

[volgr]

You didn't answer the question. Show me where Ukraine, or even NATO for that matter, has been aggressive towards Russia or have launched a series of military campaigns against the Motherland prior to Feb 2022.

This has been rehashed to death in this thread. You know what it is, you choose to disagree. Putin has made his case as well and laid it out in clear detail. The West's response not only over the last year plus since the war began but since 2014 and even before has proven Russia's interpretation to be largely correct.

 

[Burhead]

This has been rehashed to death in this thread. You know what it is, you choose to disagree. Putin has made his case as well and laid it out in clear detail. The West's response not only over the last year plus since the war began but since 2014 and even before has proven Russia's interpretation to be largely correct.

The West has only ever reacted to Russia's path of imperialism and aggression since 2014. They illegally annexed Crimea, stirred up separatism in the east, and they finally brought this conflict to a full scale war. Putin's only case was that Ukraine shouldn't exist without Russia and that Kyiv is run by imaginary Nazi death squads.

 

[BeardedVol]

This has been rehashed to death in this thread. You know what it is, you choose to disagree. Putin has made his case as well and laid it out in clear detail. The West's response not only over the last year plus since the war began but since 2014 and even before has proven Russia's interpretation to be largely correct.

Absolute nonsense. Russia tried to stop Ukraine from signing the EU trade accords in 2013, and threatened Ukraine with a pro-Russian insurgency.

They literally said exactly what they would do if Ukraine signed the trade deal.
Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia
The Glazyev Tapes: Getting to the root of the conflict in Ukraine

When Ukraine ousted Putin's puppet, Russia made good on their threat.


Literal direct interference in Ukrainian affairs, by Russia, that you pretend didn't happen because it doesn't fit your nonsense narrative.

 

[volgr]

no. I don't believe Bakhmut is a trap by either side. Russia is closing it too slow because they have been trying since August. Continuously. Its not like they try, fail. sit there for 3 months, and try again. They are attacking literally every day. thats a ton of resources to expend, even if you want to believe they aren't losing many lives.

Russia made huge moves at the start of the war. they were trying to take Kiev and get Ukraine to capitulate quickly. thats a big move. they were trying to push towards Odessa, to the point where you guys were talking about Ukraine losing all of their Black Sea coast. thats a big move. they have deployed an extra 500k conscripts. thats a big move. Bakhmut was supposed to be the lynchpin in Ukraine's defense that was going to cause their collapse, that sounds like it should have been a big move. Russia hasn't been organized enough to make an actual big move that would change the war. they have attempted multiple of them, and failed so far.

i will definitely agree it is causing maximum casualties, but that's not a one sided sword, and it was definitely not what you guys were espousing at the start of the war. "most peaceful war ever", "Wont be as destructive as the way America fights".

and what goals has Russia accomplished? The "Nazis" are still in power. Ukraine is still being armed. NATO has gotten closer to Russia. They still don't control all of the areas they have claimed as Russian. This just sounds like yet another rhetoric change to cover for the realities of current events.

NATO being a threat to Russia was a sort of Shrodinger's cat. Russia claimed it, NATO denied it. It wasnt until the war opened the proverbial box to find the cat was indeed dead or in other words, Russias assumptions were correct. At this point it doesnt really matter where NATO is, Russia now knows their true intention.

As for big moves, I am talking about Russia making big moves on the battlefield specifically, not calling up 500k reserves. As for Bakhmut, it was definitely a trap for Ukrainians. The loss of life over the last few months for Ukraine is staggering and likely has cost them what little chance they had to win this. Bakhmut, once finally cleared and taken will be a huge victory for Russia and open up not only a much easier westward expansion but make life easier for areas to the east who were being indiscriminately shelled by Ukraine from Bakhmut.

 

[volgr]

The West has only ever reacted to Russia's path of imperialism and aggression since 2014. They illegally annexed Crimea, stirred up separatism in the east, and they finally brought this conflict to a full scale war. Putin's only case was that Ukraine shouldn't exist without Russia and that Kyiv is run by imaginary Nazi death squads.

Ukraine has a right to self determine, as you and others on your side like to preach, however you fall oddly silent on Crimea and other pro-Russian areas who had been trying for years to hold referendums to split from Ukraine. Do they not have a right to self determine?

 

[volgr]

Absolute nonsense. Russia tried to stop Ukraine from signing the EU trade accords in 2013, and threatened Ukraine with a pro-Russian insurgency.

They literally said exactly what they would do if Ukraine signed the trade deal.
Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia
The Glazyev Tapes: Getting to the root of the conflict in Ukraine

When Ukraine ousted Putin's puppet, Russia made good on their threat.


Literal direct interference in Ukrainian affairs, by Russia, that you pretend didn't happen because it doesn't fit your nonsense narrative.

I have never pretended Russia hasnt influenced or interfered in Ukraine. Of course they have. As all large Nations do to their smaller satellite Nations. China does it, the US does it, etc.

 

[Burhead]

Ukraine has a right to self determine, as you and others on your side like to preach, however you fall oddly silent on Crimea and other pro-Russian areas who had been trying for years to hold referendums to split from Ukraine. Do they not have a right to self determine?

Again this has been rehashed as well. Ukraine was an independent state for nearly 23 years without any of the trouble that other post-Soviet countries experienced in the post-USSR era. It was only in 2014 after Russian FSB and special forces went in did separatism start circulating in the population that's not a coincidence.

 

[volgr]

You also failed to acknowledge the Russian population crisis as well. For each Russian male that dies in Ukraine that's less future Russians being born.

I was talking about this early in the conflict. Yes, I acknowledge Russia has a birthrate problem and has had one for quite a while.

 

[Burhead]

 

[volgr]

Again this has been rehashed as well. Ukraine was an independent state for nearly 23 years without any of the trouble that other post-Soviet countries experienced in the post-USSR era. It was only in 2014 after Russian FSB and special forces went in did separatism start circulating in the population that's not a coincidence.

Come now, let us speak truthfully. Crimea is and has been much more pro-Russian than pro-Ukrainian. I am sure Russia has tried to influence other areas that arent as pro-Russia as Crimea but they didnt push Crimea into referendums. This is also why Crimea fell so easily. There was little pushback as most in Crimea were happy to be out of Ukraine. Now, you could argue they may have wanted to be independent first and Russia second but being Ukrainian was a distant third.

 

[WilcoVolsFan]

Missed the part where Ukrainian tanks crossed the border into Russia.

It was right after Kuwait invaded Iraq with NATO support and murdered their innocent troops.

My goodness does @volgr hate America and love dictators.

 

[volgr]

It was right after Kuwait invaded Iraq with NATO support and murdered their innocent troops.

My goodness does @volgr hate America and love dictators.

Was this after the Kuwaiti girl made up an elaborate story about Iraqis taking babies from incubators and throwing them on the floor?

 

[volfanhill]

Prigozhin ridicules nuclear strike idea in wake of alleged drone attack on Kremlin

 

[LouderVol]

NATO being a threat to Russia was a sort of Shrodinger's cat. Russia claimed it, NATO denied it. It wasnt until the war opened the proverbial box to find the cat was indeed dead or in other words, Russias assumptions were correct. At this point it doesnt really matter where NATO is, Russia now knows their true intention.

As for big moves, I am talking about Russia making big moves on the battlefield specifically, not calling up 500k reserves. As for Bakhmut, it was definitely a trap for Ukrainians. The loss of life over the last few months for Ukraine is staggering and likely has cost them what little chance they had to win this. Bakhmut, once finally cleared and taken will be a huge victory for Russia and open up not only a much easier westward expansion but make life easier for areas to the east who were being indiscriminately shelled by Ukraine from Bakhmut.

the only way your cat was dead was after that cat started killing others. What would Ukraine/NATO have done if Russia never invades? The answer is nothing, just like they had been doing since the 50s. Both sides had been interfering in each other's wars the entire time, nothing was changing there.

what about Bakhmut makes it a gateway to the west? Any infrastructure has been bombed to hades and back multiple times over. Its not the only river crossing for 100 miles, its doesn't control passage into a mountain range. It was literally just the next town on the line. There is no reason to think Ukraine won't be able to hold up Russia for a similar amount of time at the next town they actually plan to hold. yeah it opens up the next 10 or so kilometers, but thats a ton of energy to take that. and if Ukraine has been smart they have had 9 months to at choose and prepare their next defensive area.

and I thought Ukraine was shelling so little it wasn't having an effect? But now they have enough shells to just throw around to random areas?

I am willing to bet there will be no major pushes by Russia out of Bakhmut for at least 6 months. which should be more than enough time if it was as easy as you think. When do you think Russia takes advantage of the fall of Bakhmut?

 

[LouderVol]

Ukraine has a right to self determine, as you and others on your side like to preach, however you fall oddly silent on Crimea and other pro-Russian areas who had been trying for years to hold referendums to split from Ukraine. Do they not have a right to self determine?

what pre-2014 referendums? Got a link? Those areas have the same right to self determinate as Ukraine does, free of outside interference. Lets remove the Russians, keep the Ukrainians out, and then let them decide.

 

[LouderVol]

Come now, let us speak truthfully. Crimea is and has been much more pro-Russian than pro-Ukrainian. I am sure Russia has tried to influence other areas that arent as pro-Russia as Crimea but they didnt push Crimea into referendums. This is also why Crimea fell so easily. There was little pushback as most in Crimea were happy to be out of Ukraine. Now, you could argue they may have wanted to be independent first and Russia second but being Ukrainian was a distant third.

yes they did.

they kicked out the Ukrainian government and occupied all the government buildings.
held a vote the next day.
went door to door with armed men to get people out to vote.
stood over the ballot box with a machine pointed at the voters.

there was little pushback because Ukraine had been controlled by a Russian puppet and nothing was done to prep for that fight.

 

[WilcoVolsFan]

Was this after the Kuwaiti girl made up an elaborate story about Iraqis taking babies from incubators and throwing them on the floor?

Good point. The Kuwaitis were clearly the aggressors in this scenario.

Do you light a candle every day on the anniversary of Saddam's hanging still?

 

[KB5252]

so because Finland, and maybe Sweden, have/will join NATO in 2023, Russia is justified to invade Ukraine in 2022? forget 4D chess, you are resorting to time travel to try and justify the Russians. Also might need to look at a map, because Ukraine is not Finland or Sweden, nor particularly close to either.

and how the eff was Ukraine belligerent to Russia?

They didn't capitulate and give them what they wanted when Ukraine quit playing little brother and capitulating to Russian wishes.

 

[evillawyer]

Everyone has a plan to steal a flag until they get punched in the mouth

 

[turbovol]

Come now, let us speak truthfully. Crimea is and has been much more pro-Russian than pro-Ukrainian. I am sure Russia has tried to influence other areas that arent as pro-Russia as Crimea but they didnt push Crimea into referendums. This is also why Crimea fell so easily. There was little pushback as most in Crimea were happy to be out of Ukraine. Now, you could argue they may have wanted to be independent first and Russia second but being Ukrainian was a distant third.

Not exactly: Were Crimeans really pro-Russian before annexation? | LSE Research (London School of Economics)