War in Ukraine

#64,876
#64,876
VolStrom said:
I believe that the US didn't do a damn thing to de-escalate the conflict and therefor encouraged a war that would end up enriching the US defense companies, which probably led to millions of dollars funneled to our politicians.
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What should we have done? Given Russian billions to leave Ukraine? Given Ukraine billions to hand over part of their land? Held another round of peace/ceasefire talks that neither side wanted to uphold?
 
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#64,877
#64,877
LouderVol said:
What should we have done? Given Russian billions to leave Ukraine? Given Ukraine billions to hand over part of their land? Held another round of peace/ceasefire talks that neither side wanted to uphold?
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Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
 
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#64,878
#64,878
hog88 said:
Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
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So they can saber rattle every time they need attention just like the DPRK?

F that - don't negotiate with terrorists.

Our munitions are being put to the use for which they were designed against a foe they were designed for AND we don't have American troops in harm's way. f*** yes.

Rotating stock with benefits.
 
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#64,879
#64,879
hog88 said:
Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
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Billions in aid? I suspect what you’re suggesting would have looked more like a trillion dollar bribe. And of course, that money would probably just be used to fund their future invasions.
 
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#64,881
#64,881
hog88 said:
Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
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That's a horrible plan, then they'd have even more reason to do it again. We would have made threatening Russian neighbors a cottage industry for Putin.
 
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#64,883
#64,883
hog88 said:
The plan we're following now isn't much if any better.
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Sure it is. The resources aren’t being paid as extortion without any cost to Russia. Instead they are helping Ukraine defend their sovereignty (*cough* like we agreed to *cough*) while at the same time helping Russia deconstruct itself. Win win.
 
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#64,884
#64,884
hog88 said:
The plan we're following now isn't much if any better.
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The plan is to make it as costly as possible for Russia militarily and economically. Given their history of invading neighbors it's almost assured it will be a matter of time before they do it again. The upside is it may be possible to defeat Russia or at the least force them back to prior borders. It cost us some money and weapons and we get to actually see how effective the weapons we developed to fight Russia decades ago are and test some newer technology.
 
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#64,885
#64,885
hog88 said:
Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
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No, sir.

There's only one way to handle Russia.

raw.gif
 
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#64,887
#64,887
VolStrom said:
I believe that the US didn't do a damn thing to de-escalate the conflict and therefor encouraged a war that would end up enriching the US defense companies, which probably led to millions of dollars funneled to our politicians.
Click to expand...

What actions should the US have taken in 2014 when Russia illegally annexed Crimea, and sent soldiers into Eastern Ukraine, that you believe would have been sufficient to "de-escalate the conflict", and deprive US defense companies of increased funds 8 years later when Russia escalated their invasion?
 
#64,888
#64,888
LouderVol said:
I agree it was mostly the defensive structures that changed things.

at range, yes the Russian tank guns would struggle, thats why they had the defensives to help pin the germans in place so they could get in close and pick them apart. the germans didn't have enough tigers and panthers to make a real difference. Kinda like its forgotten that the T-34 was present at the start of Barbarossa, they were there, but not in enough numbers to win even though they were better.

The Tigers and Panthers were also hugely unreliable and prone to breaking down in '43, reliability rates of less than 50% were common.

I just don't consider Kursk a good tank on tank representation to say it was a schooling.
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That last sentence is very true. I should have been specific in saying the schooling was in battlefield preparations. But it worked beautifully and they were able to use effective artillery into the presighted kill boxes.
 
#64,889
#64,889
hog88 said:
Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
Click to expand...

So, you are a "hard no" on giving billions in military aid to Ukraine to defend themselves, because we might give more money to arms manufacturers to replace weapons, but you would have been fine with giving Putin billions in ransom money, in the hopes that it would have kept him from invading Ukraine?
i-dont-believe-you-whatever.gif
 
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#64,890
#64,890
hog88 said:
Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
Click to expand...
what aid are we going to give them that would have convinced them not to invade? They aren't invading because they are short of food or medicine or oil. They don't need a trade-able item. Is it a one time thing, and we say we tried if Russia invades later? Or do we keep doing the Russian aid until Putin dies and his dream of reuniting the Soviet Union with him?

I just don't see any way it would have stopped Russia.
 
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#64,893
#64,893
BeardedVol said:
So, you are a "hard no" on giving billions in military aid to Ukraine to defend themselves, because we might give more money to arms manufacturers to replace weapons, but you would have been fine with giving Putin billions in ransom money, in the hopes that it would have kept him from invading Ukraine?
i-dont-believe-you-whatever.gif
Click to expand...


You just hit a rather crazy idea with a Himars logic missile.
 
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#64,894
#64,894
hog88 said:
Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
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Bro. Real American genius ala "bud light" right there!

I pay you not to invade!
 
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#64,896
#64,896
hog88 said:
Maybe offered Russia billions in aid not to invade? It's not a great plan but this war is costing us billions anyway and maybe more Americans other than just high ranking politicians, bureaucrats and the MIC could have profited off the aid.
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Hey hog, I am going to invade my neighbor, why don't you just go ahead and send me cash to see if it stops me.
 
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#64,899
#64,899
BeardedVol said:
So, you are a "hard no" on giving billions in military aid to Ukraine to defend themselves, because we might give more money to arms manufacturers to replace weapons, but you would have been fine with giving Putin billions in ransom money, in the hopes that it would have kept him from invading Ukraine?
i-dont-believe-you-whatever.gif
Click to expand...

I clearly said it’s not a great plan. Have trouble reading?

The plan we’re on now hasn’t driven the Russians out or caused the internal upheaval in Russia that was expected. The lines haven’t moved much in 5-6 months so where’s the progress? When is this “spring offensive” going to kick off, it is spring in Ukraine?

But really, what’s our limit? What does a win look like and how much are we supposed to spend for it. What I think will end up happening is this will continue another year give or take and they will settle. In the end Russia will get the territory they wanted and we’ll be out billions of dollars.
 
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