War in Ukraine

#66,079
#66,079
NorthDallas40 said:
Why would Ukraine do it? What is a single valid reason.
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False flag, or just general sabotage.

Depending on what/who you believe is ultimately behind a lot of this sabotage going on throughout Russia it could easily be one of those elements. It could be a Ukrainian asset, or someone who is pro Ukraine, or it could be an anti-Russian/Putin. Ukraine may not have given a specific order to take out the dam. But when you unleash chaotic elements like saboteurs, or work to empower local "partisans", it's definitely not unprecedented to have it blow up in your face. Pun intended.

I still think its Russia, too much Occams razor for even my explanation above to be anyone but Russia.
 
#66,080
#66,080
volinbham said:
why did they presumably bomb Nordstream?
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What? You actually see any equivalence in the two? A revenue stream to their enemy vs a valuable and necessary major infrastructure item that controls flooding and provides cooling to the largest nuclear power plant in Europe? Not to mention risking the safety of their own citizens by blueing it up and causing flooding? C’mon man
 
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#66,081
#66,081
LouderVol said:
False flag, or just general sabotage.

Depending on what/who you believe is ultimately behind a lot of this sabotage going on throughout Russia it could easily be one of those elements. It could be a Ukrainian asset, or someone who is pro Ukraine, or it could be an anti-Russian/Putin. Ukraine may not have given a specific order to take out the dam. But when you unleash chaotic elements like saboteurs, or work to empower local "partisans", it's definitely not unprecedented to have it blow up in your face. Pun intended.

I still think its Russia, too much Occams razor for even my explanation above to be anyone but Russia.
Click to expand...

wouldn't it be interesting if it's some 3rd party using munitions we or NATO sent?

I honestly don't believe either Ukraine or Russia so I won't react as if it was one or the other. Kinda like Nordstream it could be "rationale" for why more resources are needed and how Russia must be stopped by any means necessary.
 
#66,082
#66,082
LouderVol said:
False flag, or just general sabotage.

Depending on what/who you believe is ultimately behind a lot of this sabotage going on throughout Russia it could easily be one of those elements. It could be a Ukrainian asset, or someone who is pro Ukraine, or it could be an anti-Russian/Putin. Ukraine may not have given a specific order to take out the dam. But when you unleash chaotic elements like saboteurs, or work to empower local "partisans", it's definitely not unprecedented to have it blow up in your face. Pun intended.

I still think its Russia, too much Occams razor for even my explanation above to be anyone but Russia.
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If Ukraine blew it up to make the Russians look bad they are idiots. Drowning people, destroying crop lands, removing cooling from the nuke plant, etc… just doesn’t make sense
 
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#66,083
#66,083
volinbham said:
wouldn't it be interesting if it's some 3rd party using munitions we or NATO sent?

I honestly don't believe either Ukraine or Russia so I won't react as if it was one or the other. Kinda like Nordstream it could be "rationale" for why more resources are needed and how Russia must be stopped by any means necessary.
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Nordstream is an obvious military target for Ukraine. The damn is not. It just makes zero sense and isn’t dependent on if you believe either of them.
 
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#66,084
#66,084
NorthDallas40 said:
What? You actually see any equivalence in the two? A revenue stream to their enemy vs a valuable and necessary major infrastructure item that controls flooding and provides cooling to the largest nuclear power plant in Europe? Not to mention risking the safety of their own citizens by blueing it up and causing flooding? C’mon man
Click to expand...

Nordstream cut off energy flows to Europe - that put citizens at risk and was motivation for NATO countries to step up more against a country (Russia) that was intentionally starving Europe of needed energy. Meanwhile, Russia could replace the revenue stream easier than Europe could replace the energy.
 
#66,085
#66,085
volinbham said:
Nordstream cut off energy flows to Europe - that put citizens at risk and was motivation for NATO countries to step up more against a country (Russia) that was intentionally starving Europe of needed energy. Meanwhile, Russia could replace the revenue stream easier than Europe could replace the energy.
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Yep it did. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid military target for Ukraine though. In fact you just proved my point that it was. And Ukraine doesn’t risk the safety of their own citizens in attacking it. However they destroy farmland, homes, and risk the safety of their citizens by blowing the damn. They are not equivalent
 
#66,086
#66,086
NorthDallas40 said:
Yep it did. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid military target for Ukraine though. In fact you just proved my point that it was. And Ukraine doesn’t risk the safety of their own citizens in attacking it. However they destroy farmland, homes, and risk the safety of their citizens by blowing the damn. They are not equivalent
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they may not be equivalent but they could have the same end goal.

I'll await more information before I conclude who the culprit is
 
#66,087
#66,087
volinbham said:
they may not be equivalent but they could have the same end goal.

I'll await more information before I conclude who the culprit is
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That’s a fair stance at the moment. I’d suggest Russia is the obvious actor just as Ukraine was the obvious actor on Nordstream. Just none of us believed they could pull it off.
 
#66,088
#66,088
Assuming Ukraine bombed Nordstream:

if Nordstream is a legit military target why wouldn't Ukraine acknowledge it?

It certainly appears they used the bombing as a rallying tool to get more support from Europe - if they did it, I'd consider that an attack on Europe as well as Russia.
 
#66,089
#66,089
volinbham said:
Assuming Ukraine bombed Nordstream:

if Nordstream is a legit military target why wouldn't Ukraine acknowledge it?

It certainly appears they used the bombing as a rallying tool to get more support from Europe - if they did it, I'd consider that an attack on Europe as well as Russia.
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I agree with everything you said here. They are the obvious party to want it destroyed.
 
#66,090
#66,090
Why anyone would rule out what is one of the most corrupt countries in the world doing a stupid attack on its "allies" is beyond me.
 
#66,091
#66,091
Destruction of Ukraine Dam Floods Front Line, Scrambling Battle Plans

sorry for a paywall article but of interest there are arguments to be made why this hurts Ukraine and helps Russia and vice versa.

on the hurts Russia side: it greatly reduces the water supply to Crimea the longest held Russian area in the Ukraine and clears minefields and fortifications in the land bridge between Crimea and Ukraine.
on the helps Russia side: it gives them time to send reinforcements to the area and delays a possible counter offensive by Ukraine in the area.

of note:

Jens Stoltenberg, the secretary-general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, said the dam’s destruction was “an outrageous act, which demonstrates once again the brutality of Russia’s war in Ukraine.”
A senior NATO official said it was too early to say who was responsible.
“Russian actors most likely have a motive,” said the official. “It’s the Russians that stand to benefit from the dam not being there.”
 
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#66,092
#66,092
volinbham said:
Nordstream cut off energy flows to Europe - that put citizens at risk and was motivation for NATO countries to step up more against a country (Russia) that was intentionally starving Europe of needed energy. Meanwhile, Russia could replace the revenue stream easier than Europe could replace the energy.
Click to expand...

Putin had already stopped the gas flows in NS1, and NS2 was never certified to start delivering gas.

Gazprom on the other hand, would have been on the hook for millions in non-delivery penalties for not fulfilling their delivery contracts to Europe, if they refused to pump gas through a working pipeline.
 
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#66,095
#66,095
volinbham said:
wouldn't it be interesting if it's some 3rd party using munitions we or NATO sent?

I honestly don't believe either Ukraine or Russia so I won't react as if it was one or the other. Kinda like Nordstream it could be "rationale" for why more resources are needed and how Russia must be stopped by any means necessary.
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Certainly going to be plenty of munitions laying around. From both sides. This is clearly not a well organized war by either side.
 
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#66,097
#66,097
Rasputin_Vol said:
How many "Russians" were in the leadership of the USSR when it started? You do know that "Russia" is a multiethnic region, right?
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Hey, I even know Russia is on two continents, and still stupid enough to buy communism hook, line, and sinker.
 
#66,098
#66,098
TVOLS said:
Both sides are blaming each other for blowing the dam. I ask why would Ukraine blow it? That would impede their troop movement taking back land.
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Russia has always been the guy in the room to pop up "OK, who did it?" when the stench went wafting through the room ... all the time knowing where it started. Russia is the original "Din't do nuffin" kind of place ... most people have that all figured out by now - a couple here haven't, and that's a promise.
 
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#66,099
#66,099
Velo Vol said:
There's negative consequences for both sides.

I'm reading that Russians had control of the dam, which makes them more suspect, though not conclusively so. Awaiting more concrete evidence.

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"concrete evidence"? You trying to get McDad rolling?
 
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