War in Ukraine

#68,756
#68,756
NorthDallas40 said:
There it is. Now we will see who blinks first.
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It was always a forgone conclusion that Turkey and Hungary would eventually bend the knee. You don’t invite two new members unless you are assured you have the support IMO it would be a bad look otherwise.
 
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#68,757
#68,757
Burhead said:
It was always a forgone conclusion that Turkey and Hungry would eventually bend the knee. You don’t invite two new members unless you are assured you have the support IMO it would be a bad look otherwise.
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Turkey’s EU membership has been frozen for coming on 20 years. It’s essentially dead at this point. Erdogan made a big play but yeah he’ll probably settle for something else. And I wonder how long before Turkey and Hungary are thrown out of NATO at this point.
 
#68,758
#68,758
NorthDallas40 said:
Turkey’s EU membership has been frozen for coming on 20 years. It’s essentially dead at this point. Erdogan made a big play but yeah he’ll probably settle for something else. And I wonder how long before Turkey and Hungary are thrown out of NATO at this point.
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Can’t have this playing both sides of the fence nonsense.
 
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#68,760
#68,760
hog88 said:
Excuses is what we are getting for our tax dollars.
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again, your two weather arguments seem to contradict each other. I am not sure how the weather only effects Russian logistics ON THE DEFENSIVE, but not the Ukrainian supply lines they would have to build to support their attack.

how much have we actually given them? Seems like you know 1. how much they need based on your statements of what they should be doing, 2. how much we have given to say they can do what you expect them to do.

I also have no idea what our intelligence sharing actually looks like. You are assuming we are giving them all the information on the entire Russian military to know about Russian logistics in winter, as well as what the Russians are doing behind the front line. I have always assumed, and haven't seen anything to say otherwise, that we are picking and choosing what to give them, just like we haven't given out the longest ranged weaponry. I figured we were giving them intel on the front lines, and then some strategic fixed point staging areas behind the line. and even if we gave them the intelligence nothing says that they are 1. smart enough to make use of it appropriately. 2. that it actually made it to the people who would make those judgements, and 3. that they actually could take advantage of said intelligence.

Idk, I just don't see how you can assume an army we built up from nothing in less than a decade is going to operate perfectly, or at least to the level you expect, in a war where they are at a disadvantage in pretty much every category.
 
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#68,762
#68,762
davethevol said:
Turkey holding NATO hostage and pretending to be our ally while also pretending to be Russia’s Buddy.
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Ah ok. Honestly due to geography Turkey needs to have a good relationship with Russia. They are likely to always be trading partners to some degree and Turkey imports a lot of their grain. But they and Hungary are continual NATO antagonists to the point that you wonder why the hell they ever wanted to join I think. And I know the answer to that. So we could put nukes at Incerlik
 
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#68,763
#68,763
Rasputin_Vol said:
I found out yesterday why they are sending them. Apparently, they are the only 155mm shells they have left to give Ukraine. And you are correct. Many of the bomblets do not explode on initial impact, but are left behind... waiting to be exploded later on by children, civilians, livestock, etc.
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just like all those mines Russia is planting....
 
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#68,765
#68,765
volbound1700 said:
As stated, many Democratic nations including US and UK have held elections during war time. Ukraine could find a way. UK was definitely under attack during WW2 and still held elections.
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so a good democracy is one that ignores its own Constitution?

I can understand not liking that they aren't scheduled to have elections IF things are still going on in spring 2024. But I don't understand calling them out for following their own laws.

something has to give, either democracy OR holding up their constitution.
 
#68,766
#68,766
NorthDallas40 said:
Ah ok. Honestly due to geography Turkey needs to have a good relationship with Russia. They are likely to always be trading partners to some degree and Turkey imports a lot of their grain. But they and Hungary are continual NATO antagonists to the point that you wonder why the hell they ever wanted to join I think. And I know the answer to that. So we could put nukes at Incerlik
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It’s a very tricky situation and a perpetual thorn in the sides of the West.
 
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#68,767
#68,767
Unfortunately Russia GDP is holding up. Looks like government spending is picking up the slack for export decline. I wonder what their deficit is?

 
#68,768
#68,768
NorthDallas40 said:
Turkey’s EU membership has been frozen for coming on 20 years. It’s essentially dead at this point. Erdogan made a big play but yeah he’ll probably settle for something else. And I wonder how long before Turkey and Hungary are thrown out of NATO at this point.
Click to expand...

Turkey won't be thrown out of NATO.
 
#68,770
#68,770
LouderVol said:
again, your two weather arguments seem to contradict each other. I am not sure how the weather only effects Russian logistics ON THE DEFENSIVE, but not the Ukrainian supply lines they would have to build to support their attack.

how much have we actually given them? Seems like you know 1. how much they need based on your statements of what they should be doing, 2. how much we have given to say they can do what you expect them to do.

I also have no idea what our intelligence sharing actually looks like. You are assuming we are giving them all the information on the entire Russian military to know about Russian logistics in winter, as well as what the Russians are doing behind the front line. I have always assumed, and haven't seen anything to say otherwise, that we are picking and choosing what to give them, just like we haven't given out the longest ranged weaponry. I figured we were giving them intel on the front lines, and then some strategic fixed point staging areas behind the line. and even if we gave them the intelligence nothing says that they are 1. smart enough to make use of it appropriately. 2. that it actually made it to the people who would make those judgements, and 3. that they actually could take advantage of said intelligence.

Idk, I just don't see how you can assume an army we built up from nothing in less than a decade is going to operate perfectly, or at least to the level you expect, in a war where they are at a disadvantage in pretty much every category.
Click to expand...

Russian supply lines are much longer, how can you not see that?

Why in the world would we not be sharing satellite and drone data of Russian troop movements and mine laying activities within Ukraine? They aren't laying mines inside Russia.

Are you vying for champion excuse maker with this post?
 
#68,772
#68,772
F0qMTUGWYAAxTUz
 
#68,774
#68,774
MontyPython said:
Want your input...

What if the US backs the admission of Ukraine to NATO on a date certain - say January 1, 2025. Let it be known that in the event that Russia is attacking Ukraine on that date, Article 5 is invoked and NATO automatically declares war on Russia.

This would seemingly force one of two outcomes:

(1) Putin recognizes that NATO would wipe out Russian forces in Ukraine in a conventional war, and thereby retreats all forces; or

(2) Putin throws the nuclear card, and declares that it will launch tactical and/or strategic nuclear weapons to defend its "homeland" areas within Ukraine.

In Scenario 1, Russia loses.

In Scenario 2, Russia loses, as it's on the receiving end of reciprocal nukes. Also: the world potentially ends.

What say ye?
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no, heck no, and hell no.

getting involved in a defensive agreement with Ukraine got us into this mess. why would/should we escalate our responsibilities even more? What do we get out of adding Ukraine?

I don't think we could use Article 5 in a preemptive way like that, and NATO has correctly refused/delayed membership based on ongoing conflicts before. I don't think we should make a special exemption for Ukraine.
 
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