War in Ukraine

#70,551
#70,551
Septic said:
When have they not been?

You don't think Zelensky and the Ukrainian people are super-pro US/west at this point?

Vivek's plan of "awarding" the land to Putin is asinine and would embolden Russia to keep doing it. Taiwan? Done.

This guy's foreign policy platform is utterly disqualifying as an alternative. Of course, I'm sure it's mainly an appeal to the Trumper nationalists - he's trying to peel them away.
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The Ukraine was a part of the USSR until 1991 and from then until the early/mid 2000s were a close trading partner and ally of Russia. So no, Ukraine has not always been a US ally.

If a deal with Russia could bring them in as a counter to China I don't see how that would embolden the Chinese.
 
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#70,553
#70,553
Septic said:
How tf would you possibly know that? Also, how many need to be operable to destroy the world?

You're into the sauce a little early today.
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It's pretty readily available on the web.

It doesn't matter how many nukes it takes to destroy the world, Putin isn't launching nukes unless Russia is invaded.
 
#70,554
#70,554
hog88 said:
When exactly has Ukraine been an ally?
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You're wasting your time. There's so many that worship the cult church of Ukraine, that all reasoning is gone. The cult is so far gone that even when this church has crumbled, they will still worship it.
 
#70,555
#70,555
tnmarktx said:
You're wasting your time. There's so many that worship the cult church of Ukraine, that all reasoning is gone. The cult is so far gone that even when this church has crumbled, they will still worship it.
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Most of the Ukrainiacs simply changed cults from the Branch Covidians.
 
#70,558
#70,558
Velo Vol said:
Yeah, other than the part that it's not our land to give away, we can't trust Russia will stop fighting at the new border, and we have no way of forcing Russia to do anything against China.

Other than that, it sounds great!
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What's going to be different if Ukraine finally does drive Russia out of the country?
 
#70,559
#70,559
hog88 said:
I take it you didn't read your link, just the headline. Hint: it doesn't support your contention that Ukraine has been an ally of the US.
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LMAO

Hey Johnnie Walker, Jim Beam, or whoever's speaking on your behalf:

3nd paragraph:

"However, there is little question that U.S. leaders now treat Ukraine as a NATO ally in all but name."

6th paragraph:

"Ukraine has become an important U.S. military ally as though the development was an irresistible force of nature."

10th paragraph:

"Washington has made Kiev a U.S. military ally without debate, much less a vote, on a formal agreement to do so. In essence, U.S. leaders have bypassed NATO’s admissions process and now treat Kiev as though Ukraine is an Alliance member entitled to a full‐fledged U.S. security commitment."

HINT: Lay off "Grandpa's cough medicine" in the morning, pops!

200.gif
 
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#70,561
#70,561
Septic said:
When have they not been?

You don't think Zelensky and the Ukrainian people are super-pro US/west at this point?

Vivek's plan of "awarding" the land to Putin is asinine and would embolden Russia to keep doing it. Taiwan? Done.

This guy's foreign policy platform is utterly disqualifying as an alternative. Of course, I'm sure it's mainly an appeal to the Trumper nationalists - he's trying to peel them away.
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I actually hedge on using the term ally but they have been treated as an ally in recent years that’s for sure. We have obviously made them a security dependent and we did that willingly decades ago. The merits of those decisions are a different debate however. It’s the proverbial “it seemed like a good idea at the time” I think

For a true ally I think we’d be willing to spill American blood. Anybody jumps on Great Britain and we will go to war if required. I don’t think we are willing to spill American blood for Ukraine and I don’t see anybody advocating for that.

But I do think we’ve elevated them to a security dependent.

ETA: and yeah Swamy really exposed his foreign policy naïveté across the board in the GOP POTUS debate. That was crazy.
 
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#70,562
#70,562
tnmarktx said:
You're wasting your time. There's so many that worship the cult church of Ukraine, that all reasoning is gone. The cult is so far gone that even when this church has crumbled, they will still worship it.
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90 % of our motivation, public and otherwise, is not about Ukraine, its about dissuading Putin from military aggression there and, eventually, elsewhere.
 
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#70,564
#70,564
MontyPython said:
LMAO

Hey Johnnie Walker, Jim Beam, or whoever's speaking on your behalf:

3nd paragraph:

"However, there is little question that U.S. leaders now treat Ukraine as a NATO ally in all but name."

6th paragraph:

"Ukraine has become an important U.S. military ally as though the development was an irresistible force of nature."

10th paragraph:

"Washington has made Kiev a U.S. military ally without debate, much less a vote, on a formal agreement to do so. In essence, U.S. leaders have bypassed NATO’s admissions process and now treat Kiev as though Ukraine is an Alliance member entitled to a full‐fledged U.S. security commitment."

HINT: Lay off "Grandpa's cough medicine" in the morning, pops!

View attachment 573541
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that doesn’t support your premise of being a historical ally.
 
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#70,565
#70,565
lawgator1 said:
90 % of our motivation, public and otherwise, is not about Ukraine, its about dissuading Putin from military aggression there and, eventually, elsewhere.
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It's absolutely about supporting the uniparty. Putin and Russia's army are absolutely no threat with or without control of Ukraine. That's what makes the statement that Russia is our biggest enemy such a lie.
 
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#70,568
#70,568
MontyPython said:
Name a conflict since the end of WWII that the US has been in that you supported.
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The conflict, or US involvement in said conflict? Because I cant think of a conflict I support our involvement in. Closest would be Afghanistan but we went after the wrong nation. Maybe Iraq the first time.

Take this war for instance, I "support" Ukraine but I dont think we should be as involved as we are.

With your mindset there isnt a conflict the world over we shouldnt be giving billions of dollars to, and I am just not that type of warhawk.
 
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#70,569
#70,569
MontyPython said:
Chamberlain *gave* Czechoslovakia to Hitler. He did so because he believed Hitler when he said that that was the only land that Germany wanted. Hitler lied. *shocking*

Appeasement then is appeasement today.

Putin's record clearly demonstrates that he won't stop if we were to "give" him Ukraine. Further, Putin's on the record as clearly stating that he wants the former Balkan states to return to Russia's property.
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I must have missed the 2022 version of the Munich Agreement. Because I havent seen anyone push for a treaty to give Russia land before the fighting started.
 
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#70,570
#70,570
Velo Vol said:
Did the Russian nuclear missiles inspector general publish a report or something?
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considering that several of you think they are technologically flawed and ill maintained and will prematurely detonate, then what difference does it make?
yes..that has been an excuse on here not to be concerned with Russian nukes.
 
#70,571
#70,571
LouderVol said:
I must have missed the 2022 version of the Munich Agreement. Because I havent seen anyone push for a treaty to give Russia land before the fighting started.
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Never said there was a treaty. Obviously.

In reality, had the US and our allies not provided assistance to Ukraine, Russia would have taken over the country. That would have been de facto giving Russia land before the fighting started.
 
#70,572
#70,572
what is the resolution to this war or do we go years before both parties are exhausted? I think there is a shortened timeline on this funding as US public sentiment is already turning. If there is no resolution in the medium term, Z may find himself in a very weakened negotiating position.
 
#70,573
#70,573
MontyPython said:
LMAO

Hey Johnnie Walker, Jim Beam, or whoever's speaking on your behalf:

3nd paragraph:

"However, there is little question that U.S. leaders now treat Ukraine as a NATO ally in all but name."

6th paragraph:

"Ukraine has become an important U.S. military ally as though the development was an irresistible force of nature."

10th paragraph:

"Washington has made Kiev a U.S. military ally without debate, much less a vote, on a formal agreement to do so. In essence, U.S. leaders have bypassed NATO’s admissions process and now treat Kiev as though Ukraine is an Alliance member entitled to a full‐fledged U.S. security commitment."

HINT: Lay off "Grandpa's cough medicine" in the morning, pops!

View attachment 573541
Click to expand...

Exactly (nice selective quoting BTW) the Ukraine has not been a US or NATO ally in any form or fashion at any time in history.

A close military relationship has been building for years. The trend toward making Ukraine a de facto U.S. security dependent spiked after the country’s political upheaval in 2014. Obama’s administration shamelessly meddled in that country’s internal political affairs to help demonstrators oust the elected, pro‐Russian president and install a new, pro‐Western government.
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We have made them a "security dependent" not an ally.

Ukraine has become an important U.S. military ally as though the development was an irresistible force of nature. Yet, the strategic rationale for giving Ukraine that status is murky, to say the least. Until the dissolution of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991, Ukraine was nothing more than a constituent part of that totalitarian state. No one ever argued at the time that Ukraine was a vital (or even a pertinent) security interest of the United States.
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#70,575
#70,575
hog88 said:
Exactly (nice selective quoting BTW) the Ukraine has not been a US or NATO ally in any form or fashion at any time in history.


We have made them a "security dependent" not an ally.
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Acknowledging they are a dependent doesn’t absolve us of a responsibility to assist. Rather it reinforces that responsibility. Not to ally level but if we the US recognize them as dependent on US then we have obligations
 
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