War in Ukraine

#82,377
#82,377
KB5252 said:
What are you talking about, Georgia is withstanding it now. We just didn't want to be a part of foreign military holding Georgia's puppet admin in power by show of military force.

That's not to say the US interests are pure. Or our MIC has good intentions. But that fact doesn't make Putin or Russia the good guys here. Quite the opposite in reality, they terrorized these people for centuries to bring them under foot. They never forgot and were happy to leave, even in an uncertain future when the Soviet Union collapsed.

They aren't keen to join again just to further Putin's Tsarist interests.

Anyway, it's been fun. I'm likely out for the night
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Georgia is only starting to get to the sanctions part, which is why I said they have time. The Neocons will be back. They simply are after Georgia because the implement foreign money tracking especially political funds into the country. Seems very undemocratic, does it not? I.E. transparency

We just didn't want to be a part of foreign military holding Georgia's puppet admin in power by show of military force.
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Thank you for proving the point again.

They aren't keen to join again just to further Putin's Tsarist interests.
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Thank you for agreeing again, whether a party is right is immaterial though.

You actually seem to be agreeing with the issue but not actually acknowledging the issue.

(I am ignoring the prospect of an American believing they have a say so as how and who can run a foreign country (Georgia in this instance), but that is how far this country as gone down hill in logic.)
 
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#82,382
#82,382
so the ATACMS that Ukraine used - is that something they (Ukraine military) are trained to use or did we participate via advisors/operators?

honestly asking
 
#82,383
#82,383
volinbham said:
so the ATACMS that Ukraine used - is that something they (Ukraine military) are trained to use or did we participate via advisors/operators?

honestly asking
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They were trained on the operation of the M777 and MLRS launchers using precision guided munitions prior to delivery. It’s a simple matter of data entry of the target coordinate. They have been using them successfully to strike points within Ukraine prior to this strike so they clearly know how to employ the weapon systems.
 
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#82,384
#82,384
NorthDallas40 said:
They were trained on the operation of the M777 and MLRS launchers using precision guided munitions prior to delivery. It’s a simple matter of data entry of the target coordinate. They have been using them successfully to strike points within Ukraine prior to this strike so they clearly know how to employ the weapon systems.
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thanks
 
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#82,385
#82,385
volinbham said:
thanks
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I don’t know if you were referencing the social media traffic on Putin’s claim or not with regard to your question but like I said they have used them inside their own country boundaries for over a year. There is no magical difference from a procedural data entry standpoint of a coordinate inside of Ukraine vs a coordinate inside of Russia.

So when I heard Putin’s claim that the US or NATO or whoever directly participated in this attack I laughed out loud. They know how to employ the weapon successfully as well as their own drone guided munitions we’ve got plenty of video of burning buildings inside of Russia confirming that at this point.

So Putin/Russia’s claim of direct US/NATO involvement is BS. As usual. But if you intend to saber rattle with nuclear strike rhetoric I’m guessing you need some pretext to offer up on why you’re doing the saber rattling. Even if it directly conflicts with the usage record of the systems to date. Additionally I have no direct knowledge of these particular systems I am speaking from it’s just knowledge of similar systems and inference on how this stuff generally works. TIFWIW.
 
#82,388
#82,388
KB5252 said:
]No, you avoided it by implying something completely irrelevant. I don't care what others do or think, I'm wondering why you are lumping the two together?
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I didn't avoid it, I answered (see post). You have the mentality of a child, there isn't anything I can do about that. I find it ironic you voted Orange Man Bad when what they are saying is you are Evil, well my summary.







Nothing I can do for you if you don't wish to read.

On a side note, in the future once the U.S. abandons the Ukraine as I said it would and it ends up like all the rest of American's failed fake wars and destroyed people's lives for no real reason other than money, you can keep pretending you are the good guy and move onto Georgia like you self admitted. You got that going for you.

The irony of someone thinking they are the good guys in all this and voting for Orange is hilarious. They're all saying YOU are the bad guy. The general voter for Trump rejected all the nonsense somewhere between McCain and Romney.
 
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#82,391
#82,391
jmacvols1 said:
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Mostly a show I would imagine but the show is global on something like that. Early detection systems picked up Iraq scuds in the early 90s. Probably lots of wake up calls.

Of course, if moved and launched from the middle east, they could hit the D.C. or anything on the East coast without any recourse. All of this seems kind of silly for something (Ukraine) that is going to be abandoned, of course the Dementia President leaves Trump with more issues. 🤷‍♂️

I wonder where I heard the below. 😂

 
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#82,392
#82,392
LSU-SIU said:
I didn't avoid it, I answered (see post). You have the mentality of a child, there isn't anything I can do about that. I find it ironic you voted Orange Man Bad when what they are saying is you are Evil, well my summary.







Nothing I can do for you if you don't wish to read.

On a side note, in the future once the U.S. abandons the Ukraine as I said it would and it ends up like all the rest of American's failed fake wars and destroyed people's lives for no real reason other than money, you can keep pretending you are the good guy and move onto Georgia like you self admitted. You got that going for you.

The irony of someone thinking they are the good guys in all this and voting for Orange is hilarious. They're all saying YOU are the bad guy. The general voter for Trump rejected all the nonsense somewhere between McCain and Romney.
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You can rail all you want against the big defense contractors and Black Rock and I will be right there with you. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

It's when you go a step beyond that and almost..... Well not even almost, but exactly word for word repeat Russian propaganda that you lose me. Just because Black Rock and the defense contractors are evil, bad it whatever you want to call them doesn't make Russia right or virtuous.

NATO was never floated as a possibility until Russian invasion. At least that I've heard. While the US isn't virtuous here Russia created their own Boogeyman. Plain and simple Russia wouldn't let their neighbor be sovereign nation. They wanted control of the warm water ports they didn't have themselves...... So they invaded a sovereign neighbor to get it.

That's exactly what happened here.
 
#82,393
#82,393
KB5252 said:
You can rail all you want against the big defense contractors and Black Rock and I will be right there with you. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

It's when you go a step beyond that and almost..... Well not even almost, but exactly word for word repeat Russian propaganda that you lose me. Just because Black Rock and the defense contractors are evil, bad it whatever you want to call them doesn't make Russia right or virtuous.

NATO was never floated as a possibility until Russian invasion. At least that I've heard. While the US isn't virtuous here Russia created their own Boogeyman. Plain and simple Russia wouldn't let their neighbor be sovereign nation. They wanted control of the warm water ports they didn't have themselves...... So they invaded a sovereign neighbor to get it.

That's exactly what happened here.
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I have already linked from NATOs own website the discussions with the Ukraine in the early 2000s about joining up, which is still an active link. (multiple links are in this thread about the Ukraine wanting to join up, I have no idea what you are going on about ) As I mentioned, I can't help you because you either refuse to read or won't believe what you are reading. Not my problem.

You can repeat all this goofy "Russian Propaganda" when the actual people you are voting for are in essences saying you are evil. I can't help you man.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campai...ukraine-invasion-us-in-part-to-blame-for-war/

RFK Jr. says Russia ‘acting in good faith’ in Ukraine invasion, US in part to blame for war​

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"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
 
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#82,394
#82,394
KB5252 said:
You can rail all you want against the big defense contractors and Black Rock and I will be right there with you. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

It's when you go a step beyond that and almost..... Well not even almost, but exactly word for word repeat Russian propaganda that you lose me. Just because Black Rock and the defense contractors are evil, bad it whatever you want to call them doesn't make Russia right or virtuous.

NATO was never floated as a possibility until Russian invasion. At least that I've heard. While the US isn't virtuous here Russia created their own Boogeyman. Plain and simple Russia wouldn't let their neighbor be sovereign nation. They wanted control of the warm water ports they didn't have themselves...... So they invaded a sovereign neighbor to get it.

That's exactly what happened here.
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If nato was never a possibility until 2022 then why was it brought up as a Putin red line in 2008? That came directly from the current director of the cia. Why was expansion brought up in the 90s and assurances made that it wouldn't happen?
 
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#82,395
#82,395
utvolpj said:
If nato was never a possibility until 2022 then why was it brought up as a Putin red line in 2008? That came directly from the current director of the cia. Why was expansion brought up in the 90s and assurances made that it wouldn't happen?
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I actually linked it from NATO's own website. I have further linked the Congressional Record on this as to the plan which the U.S. military was warning the elected representatives of this strategy and what the outcome would most likely be.

He doesn't want to read or is not able to comprehend what is in records that are not mine. The people that he is voting for are outright running on same basic principle or idea, which anyone that has been paying attention for 20-30 years should be able to easily see.

I have no idea why anyone would vote for Donald Trump and think that the U.S. didn't put the wheels in motion on this, that's exactly why they would be voting for him. 😂
 
#82,396
#82,396
LSU-SIU said:
I have already linked from NATOs own website the discussions with the Ukraine in the early 2000s about joining up, which is still an active link. (multiple links are in this thread about the Ukraine wanting to join up, I have no idea what you are going on about ) As I mentioned, I can't help you because you either refuse to read or won't believe what you are reading. Not my problem.

You can repeat all this goofy "Russian Propaganda" when the actual people you are voting for are in essences saying you are evil. I can't help you man.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campai...ukraine-invasion-us-in-part-to-blame-for-war/




"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
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Willful ignorance, is the worst type of ignorance.

1000004733.png

 
#82,397
#82,397
utvolpj said:
If nato was never a possibility until 2022 then why was it brought up as a Putin red line in 2008? That came directly from the current director of the cia. Why was expansion brought up in the 90s and assurances made that it wouldn't happen?
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Putin also said Ukraine joining NATO was there own prerogative in 2002.
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www.en.kremlin.ru

After the Russia-NATO Summit President Vladimir Putin took part in a joint press conference with NATO Secretary General George Robertson and Italian Prime Ministers Silvio Berlusconi

www.en.kremlin.ru www.en.kremlin.ru

Assurances were not made in the 1990s that NATO would not allow new members. Discussions with NATO at that time, were solely around NATO forces in western Germany.

Here's Gorbachev himself saying so:
 
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#82,398
#82,398
utvolpj said:
If nato was never a possibility until 2022 then why was it brought up as a Putin red line in 2008? That came directly from the current director of the cia. Why was expansion brought up in the 90s and assurances made that it wouldn't happen?
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because in 2008 NATO rejected Ukraine. there were no new talks with Ukraine after that.

the 90s expansions didn't include Ukraine, and I don't think they applied back then, so it seems like you are asking about two different situations. the flip of the question applies: If NATO expansion was a red line in the 90s, and NATO on Russia's border was a red line, why is Russia going after Ukraine? And not Estonia, Latvia, and Finland? Those are the ones who crossed Russia's red line, Ukraine hasn't.
 
#82,399
#82,399
BeardedVol said:
Putin also said Ukraine joining NATO was there own prerogative in 2002.
View attachment 699356
www.en.kremlin.ru

After the Russia-NATO Summit President Vladimir Putin took part in a joint press conference with NATO Secretary General George Robertson and Italian Prime Ministers Silvio Berlusconi

www.en.kremlin.ru www.en.kremlin.ru

Assurances were not made in the 1990s that NATO would not allow new members. Discussions with NATO at that time, were solely around NATO forces in western Germany.

Here's Gorbachev himself saying so:
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It was Germany and eastern europe
 
#82,400
#82,400
LouderVol said:
because in 2008 NATO rejected Ukraine. there were no new talks with Ukraine after that.

the 90s expansions didn't include Ukraine, and I don't think they applied back then, so it seems like you are asking about two different situations. the flip of the question applies: If NATO expansion was a red line in the 90s, and NATO on Russia's border was a red line, why is Russia going after Ukraine? And not Estonia, Latvia, and Finland? Those are the ones who crossed Russia's red line, Ukraine hasn't.
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They are 2 separate things but both show that this was in play way before 2022. The red line for Ukraine wasn't mentioned until 2008 from Burns. He's still in the current admin and should have known better. The us policy in that crooked country had been driving to this. Hopefully the half million Ukrainian lives were worth it
 
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