War in Ukraine

[BeardedVol]

It was Germany and eastern europe

It was not, and if you watch the video, Gorbachev literally says that they didn't discuss other countries joining NATO at the time.

If you'd rather read it here in the interview transcript, you can:

Mikhail Gorbachev: I am against all walls

The first and last president of the Soviet Union spoke with RBTH about the past and how it should inform the present.

www.rbth.com

Furthermore, Russia went on to sign the NATO founding act, where they agreed that sovereign nations have the right to choose their own security alliances. There was no exception for Ukraine, or any other country in that agreement.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_25468.htm

 

[volbound1700]

There is no justification for Putin to invade Ukraine. This is where LSU and Ras went off the deep end.

That being said, Biden has no business giving long range missiles to Ukraine to strike Russia. Would the USA have been happy if Russia had given weapons to the Taliban?

This is an unnecessary escalation and I don't want to play the Nuclear War/WW3 game.

 

[KB5252]

If nato was never a possibility until 2022 then why was it brought up as a Putin red line in 2008? That came directly from the current director of the cia. Why was expansion brought up in the 90s and assurances made that it wouldn't happen?

I'm not sure. Where was it brought up then? By Putin? If it was floated by someone else please educate me, I'm unaware.

 

[BeardedVol]

There is no justification for Putin to invade Ukraine. This is where LSU and Ras went off the deep end.

That being said, Biden has no business giving long range missiles to Ukraine to strike Russia. Would the USA have been happy if Russia had given weapons to the Taliban?

This is an unnecessary escalation and I don't want to play the Nuclear War/WW3 game.

Russia has been arming people to kill Americans for the last 80 years.

Hell, they flew MIGs in Korea and shot down US pilots, and operated SAMs in Vietnam, and shot down our pilots there too.

Giving Ukraine weapons to defend themselves it not an escalation.

 

[utvolpj]

It was not, and if you watch the video, Gorbachev literally says that they didn't discuss other countries joining NATO at the time.

If you'd rather read it here in the interview transcript, you can:
View attachment 699360

Mikhail Gorbachev: I am against all walls

The first and last president of the Soviet Union spoke with RBTH about the past and how it should inform the present.

www.rbth.com

Furthermore, Russia went on to sign the NATO founding act, where they agreed that sovereign nations have the right to choose their own security alliances. There was no exception for Ukraine, or any other country in that agreement.
View attachment 699361

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_25468.htm

Gorby said many things

Gorbachev: Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch to the east. The Americans did not stick to that, and the Germans did not care. Perhaps they even rubbed their hands together at how well the Russians had been ripped off. What did it achieve? Only that the Russians no longer trust Western promises.

BILD-Medienpreis für Michail Gorbatschow : Die Deutschen waren nicht aufzuhalten

20 Jahre Mauerfall! Ein deutsches Jubiläum, undenkbar ohne die Verdienste des Russen Michail Gorbatschow (78). Der letzte Generalsekretär des Zentralkomi...

m.bild.de

 

[KB5252]

I have already linked from NATOs own website the discussions with the Ukraine in the early 2000s about joining up, which is still an active link. (multiple links are in this thread about the Ukraine wanting to join up, I have no idea what you are going on about ) As I mentioned, I can't help you because you either refuse to read or won't believe what you are reading. Not my problem.

You can repeat all this goofy "Russian Propaganda" when the actual people you are voting for are in essences saying you are evil. I can't help you man.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campai...ukraine-invasion-us-in-part-to-blame-for-war/




"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."

You keep talking about me voting...... Who the hell am I voting for? I guess I need you to tell me because I don't remember pulling that lever.

 

[volbound1700]

Russia has been arming people to kill Americans for the last 80 years.

Hell, they flew MIGs in Korea and shot down US pilots, and operated SAMs in Vietnam, and shot down our pilots there too.

Giving Ukraine weapons to defend themselves it not an escalation.

That was the USSR, not the Russia Federation. We did the same things during Cold War with USSR.

That would be like cited actions by Nazi Germany against the USA for our current foreign policy with Germany or Japan in 1940s with modern Japan.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

 

[KB5252]

I have already linked from NATOs own website the discussions with the Ukraine in the early 2000s about joining up, which is still an active link. (multiple links are in this thread about the Ukraine wanting to join up, I have no idea what you are going on about ) As I mentioned, I can't help you because you either refuse to read or won't believe what you are reading. Not my problem.

You can repeat all this goofy "Russian Propaganda" when the actual people you are voting for are in essences saying you are evil. I can't help you man.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campai...ukraine-invasion-us-in-part-to-blame-for-war/




"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."

RFK jr is known for saying a lot of foolish idiotic stuff. Doesn't necessarily make him wrong here but he's not a bastion of virtue and truth.

 

[utvolpj]

I'm not sure. Where was it brought up then? By Putin? If it was floated by someone else please educate me, I'm unaware.

The Ukraine red line comment in 2008 came from the us amb to Russia. He is current cia director

 

[LSU-SIU]

There is no justification for Putin to invade Ukraine. This is where LSU and Ras went off the deep end.

That being said, Biden has no business giving long range missiles to Ukraine to strike Russia. Would the USA have been happy if Russia had given weapons to the Taliban?

This is an unnecessary escalation and I don't want to play the Nuclear War/WW3 game.

Nobody has to justify anything, which is why the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, bombed Yugoslavia, invaded and overthrew the government of Libya (basically political assignation), are invaders in Syria, at this point invaders of Iraqi, etc.

Going to war is tough, I have never said otherwise. But let's put it in perspective, the U.S. risked not only war with Cuba but nuclear war with the USSR for stuff that was similar.

At the end of the day, I don't think any of this is my business.... not really. As an American, I'm at least bright enough to understand why people hate us in the world.

 

[KB5252]

The Ukraine red line comment in 2008 came from the us amb to Russia. He is current cia director

Right, but where did the Ukraine to NATO thing become possibility?

I always heard it has been flat out rejected........ The only time I've ever heard it anything but flat out rejected was after Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Is that timeline incorrect?

 

[LSU-SIU]

RFK jr is known for saying a lot of foolish idiotic stuff. Doesn't necessarily make him wrong here but he's not a bastion of virtue and truth.

Whether he is right or wrong is not material to my point. You are voting for people that are claiming your stance is idiotic if not evil, the summary.

If I really wanted to be evil and want Russia Bad, I would vote for Hillary. I have to think at this point, you have serious issues.

You are clearly voting for people that not only don't support the things you are implying, but outright claim its morally wrong.

This would explain why our conversations don't really go anywhere.

 

[BeardedVol]

That was the USSR, not the Russia Federation. We did the same things during Cold War with USSR.

That would be like cited actions by Nazi Germany against the USA for our current foreign policy with Germany or Japan in 1940s with modern Japan.

Russia assumed the USSRs seat on the UNSC, so Russia assumes the sins as the controlling member of the USSR as well.

 

[KB5252]

Whether he is right or wrong is not material to my point. You are voting for people that are claiming your stance is idiotic if not evil, the summary.

If I really wanted to be evil and want Russia Bad, I would vote for Hillary. I have to think at this point, you have serious issues.

Again, you keep taking about me voting. Who is it you think I'm voting for or supporting?

You are all over the place.......

 

[BeardedVol]

Gorby said many things

BILD-Medienpreis für Michail Gorbatschow : Die Deutschen waren nicht aufzuhalten

20 Jahre Mauerfall! Ein deutsches Jubiläum, undenkbar ohne die Verdienste des Russen Michail Gorbatschow (78). Der letzte Generalsekretär des Zentralkomi...

m.bild.de

It's clarified, literally in that screenshot: "Baker's statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context".



I know you want to be right here because you've pinned your belief on this falsity that you've accepted to be true, but when the man who participated in the negotiations, for the other side even, tells you that you are wrong. you're wrong.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Again, you keep taking about me voting. Who is it you think I'm voting for or supporting?

You are all over the place.......

Well, who did you vote for?

You're the one all over the place, you keep saying the same stupid things even after you are given the records that show that is not the position of the people in your own government. I can't help you.

 

[volbound1700]

Russia assumed the USSRs seat on the UNSC, so Russia assumes the sins as the controlling member of the USSR as well.

They are two different regimes though. The Russia Federation of today is very different from the USSR.

Also under your logic, Ukraine should be a part of Russia since it was a full member of the USSR. So basically we are interfering in a USSR Civil War I supposed.

 

[LSU-SIU]

They are two different regimes though. The Russia Federation of today is very different from the USSR.

Also under your logic, Ukraine should be a part of Russia since it was a full member of the USSR. So basically we are interfering in a USSR Civil War I supposed.

The U.S. military outed the neocons in the 90s, which is why its in the Congressional Record. They keep arguing things that have already been admitted by a large portion of the federal government well over 25 years ago. The U.S. military also told Congress they really didn't need more military funding for Europe, hence why the neocons needed to find other places ie middle east.

They are simply arguing facts which were admitted long ago, and fairly obvious in nature.

I am not saying these things... the U.S. military did. I'm pushing Russian propaganda by linking the Congressional Record.

 

[BeardedVol]

They are two different regimes though. The Russia Federation of today is very different from the USSR.

Also under your logic, Ukraine should be a part of Russia since it was a full member of the USSR. So basically we are interfering in a USSR Civil War I supposed.

Eh, on the surface you'd call them different. They traded communism under an authoritarian, for crony capitalism under an authoritarian. Their goals and oppositions stayed the same, and they laid claim to the USSC seat, as the successor state to the USSR.

Russia Takes Over the Soviet Union's Seat at the United Nations - EJIL

www.ejil.org

 

[volbound1700]

Nobody has to justify anything, which is why the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, bombed Yugoslavia, invaded and overthrew the government of Libya (basically political assignation), are invaders in Syria, at this point invaders of Iraqi, etc.

Going to war is tough, I have never said otherwise. But let's put it in perspective, the U.S. risked not only war with Cuba but nuclear war with the USSR for stuff that was similar.

At the end of the day, I don't think any of this is my business.... not really. As an American, I'm at least bright enough to understand why people hate us in the world.

Let me go through each of these as they are different scenarios:

1. Afghanistan was justified and everyone in the world agreed including China and Russia. We were attacked by Al Quada who Afghanistan was harboring and aiding. This invasion has never been challenged by anyone with legitimacy.

2. Yugoslavia - This was a NATO action so not just USA. We did not invade, only bombed. I do think this was questionable but it was voted on by UN. It was effectively the same as UN peace keepers. However, I can agree this one was questionable. It was not necessarily USA-led

3. Libya - This was led by France, we actually had very little involvement. This one is very questionable

4. Iraq - We invaded twice so I am not sure which one you are talking about. The first one was to liberate Kuwait and was universally accepted by the Globe. Russia even supported the USA. The second one was questionable and has been questioned to this very day. It was based on WMDs that were somewhat found but problematic. Saddam was a problem for ME and had invaded 2 neighbors (Iran and Kuwait) and attacked another (Israel) without provocation. He also threatened Saudi Arabia and exterminated Kurdish people. Saddam had to go.

On the last note, I work and talk to people every day from across the globe. The USA is not as hated as people like you made out. Sure they are hated by pariah nations like North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, and Russia. Frankly nations that if they didn't exist, the world would be a BETTER PLACE. Nations like Iran and North Korea cause more suffering to humanity than bring value.

 

[volbound1700]

Eh, on the surface you'd call them different. They traded communism under an authoritarian, for crony capitalism under an authoritarian. Their goals and oppositions stayed the same, and they laid claim to the USSC seat, as the successor state to the USSR.

Russia Takes Over the Soviet Union's Seat at the United Nations - EJIL

www.ejil.org

They are vastly different. One example is religion. USSR hated and persecuted the Russia Orthodox church while Putin's regime embraces it.

The modern Russian Federation has more in common with Czarist Russia, IMO, than the USSR. To be frank, even the USSR drastically changed over time. The initially Lenin ran USSR was very different than Stalin's USSR. Most of USSR history was impacted by Stalin and his predecessors. Once that generation started dying off, USSR started to change drastically.

 

[utvolpj]

It's clarified, literally in that screenshot: "Baker's statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context".

View attachment 699365

I know you want to be right here because you've pinned your belief on this falsity that you've accepted to be true, but when the man who participated in the negotiations, for the other side even, tells you that you are wrong. you're wrong.

Others have said it did and gorby has been inconsistent. He's now clarifying Bakers words?

I know what I've heard and read. This is typical us policy playing out from the useless promises, coups, provocation pushed by the mic.

Without wikileaks we wouldn't even know that Ukraine to nato had been addressed in that way by Russia. To fully rely on what you do is a bit naive. But I guess it makes you feel right and that's the important thing

 

[KB5252]

Well, who did you vote for?

You're the one all over the place, you keep saying the same stupid things even after you are given the records that show that is not the position of the people in your own government. I can't help you.

I can't vote, I didn't support either candidate in this election. I detest both political parties and politicians in general.

I don't trust our MIC or politicians, likewise I don't trust their counterparts in Russia, China, Europe and elsewhere.

You discredit yourself when you parrot Russian propaganda on this issue, whether you realize it or not it comes off as personal to you. I've been trying to figure out why. You keep bringing up Trump and I've been wondering if that's the angle.

You always seem to come back to the congressional report on record but I trust that as much as I trust our government today. You can't say I distrust our MIC and government then use a paper report influenced and authored by the same entities as gospel truth. I find the logic there problematic at best.

 

[utvolpj]

Right, but where did the Ukraine to NATO thing become possibility?

I always heard it has been flat out rejected........ The only time I've ever heard it anything but flat out rejected was after Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Is that timeline incorrect?

If it was flat out rejected why was it so important to point out? Why the need for regime change? This has been in the works for decades. It's like believing the gaza issue started last October