War in Ukraine

[Orangeburst]

"Pax Americana" vs "Debt and Failing Republic"....quite a choice.

I say that as one who was always Pax Americana

 

[Burhead]

The first WW was complete unnecessary and unjustified by any measure. We had no real reasons to join it other than money and debt. No one would argue against WW2 but this has nothing in common with WW2. When do we learn our lessons from Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan? You are welcome to shoulder a rifle and stand in solitary with the Ukrainians but to ask another family to do that in a war that the US has no business in is unjust

It doesn't? You have an aggressive country trying to claw back to relevance by any means necessary: They want the territory of other sovereign countries due to "historical" reasons and to "protect" native speakers of those regions.

Sudentenland (Crimea)
Anschluss (Union State of Belarus and Russia)
Poland and outbreak of hostilities (Does this occur after full-scale invasion)

The Germans used the same exact playbook the Russians are using. The Germans wanted to protect ethnic Germans in those regions and the Russians want to "protect" Russian speakers. It would be naive to just dismiss this as nothing similar to the lead up to World War 2. In fact you have negotiations going on that doesn't even include the people that are directly involved (Czechs then/Ukrainians now).

 

[BreatheUT]

Bill Kristol. David French and Keith Olbermann... WOW!!!

That should be all I need to say about this. You guys are on the wrong side of this Ukraine debacle. Tucker Carlson is hitting all of the right notes.

Latest Tucker Carlson Ukraine Segment Sent Liberal Media & Political Elites Into Meltdown | ZeroHedge

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I sent you a video earlier. Apparently you ignored it.

Edit: I think that's the video. Apparently I didn't link your go to website Zero Hedge.

 

[Orangeburst]

Do you believe we can sustain ourselves with no alliances?

IMO...when you have alliances with 60% (guess), of the worlds GDP, you are bound to have issues, and even conflictive opinion within such a vast alliance.
Hey don't get me wrong I love Pax Americana, but we just cannot police the world in our present state.

Ukraine rates waaaay down the list, other than some "humiliation" factor.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

This is insane... and what is with you guys and the term "carrying water"? Call me "Aquarius" I guess if that means avoiding a needless conflict in some far off land that has no strategic impact on Main Street America.

Congressman who was seduced by a Chinese spy, now vocal about dangers of foreign influence!

 

[landscapingvol]

It doesn't? You have an aggressive country trying to claw back to relevance by any means necessary: They want the territory of other sovereign countries due to "historical" reasons and to "protect" native speakers of those regions.

Sudentenland (Crimea)
Anschluss (Union State of Belarus and Russia)
Poland and outbreak of hostilities (Does this occur after full-scale invasion)

The Germans used the same exact playbook the Russians are using. The Germans wanted to protect ethnic Germans in those regions and the Russians want to "protect" Russian speakers. It would be naive to just dismiss this as nothing similar to the lead up to World War 2. In fact you have negotiations going on that doesn't even include the people that are directly involved (Czechs then/Ukrainians now).

It doesn’t no matter how much you want it to. It’s a European issue that needs to be be solved by European nations like Germany, France, and England.

 

[Burhead]

It doesn’t no matter how much you want it to. It’s a European issue that needs to be be solved by European nations like Germany, France, and England.

Gee what happened the last two times we let that happen? Europe burned and we had to go in and help clean it up and because of that we've been there ever since. Being involved from the start may mean us not having to do that. Also I'm not advocating for American soldiers to go and fight in the trenches in the east.

 

[landscapingvol]

Once someone enlists then they have made the choice to fill a duty when required.

That’s the problem, it isn’t their duty but you are correct they will go and die. Then, gutless politicians will laud their bravery while their family members stay home. It’s easy to send someone else’s sons and daughters off to die in a needless war.

 

[allvol123]

IMO...when you have alliances with 60% (guess), of the worlds GDP, you are bound to have issues, and even conflictive opinion within such a vast alliance.
Hey don't get me wrong I love Pax Americana, but we just cannot police the world in our present state.

Ukraine rates waaaay down the list, other than some "humiliation" factor.

It won’t stop at Ukraine.

 

[landscapingvol]

Gee what happened the last two times we let that happen? Europe burned and we had to go in and help clean it up and because of that we've been there ever since. Being involved from the start may mean us not having to do that. Also I'm not advocating for American soldiers to go and fight in the trenches in the east.

I have no problem with sending resources in a limited way not decades of billions of dollars

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Gee what happened the last two times we let that happen? Europe burned and we had to go in and help clean it up and because of that we've been there ever since. Being involved from the start may mean us not having to do that. Also I'm not advocating for American soldiers to go and fight in the trenches in the east.

None of that was something we had to do. They created their own mess and we ended up bailing them out. We shouldn't have a presence over there right now, either. At this point, it's just a provocative position to agitate Russia and/or give countries like Poland some Dutch courage.

 

[allvol123]

That’s the problem, it isn’t their duty but you are correct they will go and die. Then, gutless politicians will laud their bravery while their family members stay home. It’s easy to send someone else’s sons and daughters off to die in a needless war.

Too emotional for me, the “sons and daughters “ schtick. Grown men and women enlist in our armed forces. We should be a damn meat grinder of a military that shreds anything we encounter. That reputation would also ensure only people that are ready to fight at the drop of a hat, enlist.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

That’s the problem, it isn’t their duty but you are correct they will go and die. Then, gutless politicians will laud their bravery while their family members stay home. It’s easy to send someone else’s sons and daughters off to die in a needless war.

Keep in mind who you are sparring with. This guy has no scruples when it comes to profiteering or saber rattling. He's one of these conservatives/right wingers that help to maintain the negative stereotypes.

 

[Orangeburst]

It won’t stop at Ukraine.

Russia has a second rate small military, a shell of the USSR. They have neither the manpower, military, financial or logistics to conduct anything but "close proximity" actions. Now if you want to really piss them off they can resort to world ending catastrophe.

Now the CCP...therein lies peer to peer issues.

This is nothing but a "Monroe Doctrine" lite. and Realpolitik.

 

[Burhead]

None of that was something we had to do. They created their own mess and we ended up bailing them out. We shouldn't have a presence over there right now, either. At this point, it's just a provocative position to agitate Russia and/or give countries like Poland some Dutch courage.

I'm going to ask you a question and please answer honestly. If you had the power, would you sit out of WWII knowing full well what the Germans were doing in the camps? The Brits would not have been able to liberate Europe and would allow the Germans to turn their full attention and resources towards the Soviets and then to the Final Solution? Could you sleep at night knowing you condemned millions of innocent people to death?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I have no problem with sending resources in a limited way not decades of billions of dollars

We will send "billions" in one weapons transfer. This country pizzas away billions of dollars on everything except what would actually be beneficial to Main Street Americans.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'm going to ask you a question and please answer honestly. If you had the power, would you sit out of WWII knowing full well what the Germans were doing in the camps? The Brits would not have been able to liberate Europe and would allow the Germans to turn their full attention and resources towards the Soviets and then to the Final Solution? Could you sleep at night knowing you condemned millions of innocent people to death?

Yes. We would have saved a half million Americans from dying.

 

[allvol123]

Russia has a second rate small military, a shell of the USSR. They have neither the manpower, military, financial or logistics to conduct anything but "close proximity" actions. Now if you want to really piss them off they can resort to world ending catastrophe.

Now the CCP...therein lies peer to peer issues.

This is nothing but a "Monroe Doctrine" lite. and Realpolitik.

You’re not going to need much of a military if European countries roll over.

 

[Orangeburst]

You’re not going to need much of a military if European countries roll over.

The way I look at it..if they roll. then this is nothing but an Afghan II.

I just look at the Balkans as an example.....Good Lord Europe...do u care or not? and if not why should we as they are on your continent.

Now the CCP...my eyes are focused

 

[allvol123]

The way I look at it..if they roll. then this is nothing but an Afghan II.

I just look at the Balkans as an example.....Good Lord Europe...do u care or not? and if not why should we as they are on your continent.

Now the CCP...my eyes are focused

Again, their care or lack thereof will be irrelevant at some point to us. We will be affected.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You’re not going to need much of a military if European countries roll over.

Is that our problem?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The way I look at it..if they roll. then this is nothing but an Afghan II.

I just look at the Balkans as an example.....Good Lord Europe...do u care or not? and if not why should we as they are on your continent.

Now the CCP...my eyes are focused

China is problematic.
Russia is just a distraction.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Again, their care or lack thereof will be irrelevant at some point to us. We will be affected.

How will we be affected?

 

[Burhead]

Is that our problem?

Yes because of Article 5. Its better to show resolve and deterrence now then to invite open confrontation because of appeared weakness.

 

[allvol123]

Is that our problem?

This is always the last question. And yes, at some point it will be.