War in Ukraine

[DonjoVol]

So from what I'm hearing people say in this thread then there should be almost near unanimous agreement that we never should have invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and never should have gotten involved in Syria. Glad to see the majority of you realize that now.

 

[landscapingvol]

Ukrainian Woman Claims Russian Troops Raping Women In Kherson

A Ukrainian resident of the Russian-controlled city of Kherson said the occupying troops have “already started to rape our women.”

Svetlana Zorina, 27, who lives with her grandmother in the Black Sea port city of about 290,000 people captured Wednesday, spoke with CNN about the dire situation and accused the invading forces of sexually attacking women.

“They already started to rape our women. There was information from people that I personally know that a 17-year-old girl — it happened to her and then they killed her,” she told host John Berman on Friday. These claims have not yet been independently verified.

Asked if city residents have mounted any resistance, she said that all people can do is “just to sit at home and take care of ourselves because we are scared.”

Zorina added: “We are terrified and scared but we are not going to give up.”

Ukrainian woman Svetlana Zorina claims Russian troops raping women in occupied city of Kherson

They have had a lot of practice in the past, nearly 10-20% of the female population in Berlin was rapped/assaulted by the Russian military during the Battle of Berlin and its aftermath; several thousand committed suicide

 

[LouderVol]

Russia... interesting. Well lets look at history. Poland, France and Germany have been just as much of a threat (if not more so) to Russia than the other way around. So with these mutual spats, wouldn't the sensible and pragmatic option be to go to separate corners or have buffers between Russia and everyone else? How is providing a buffer zone between the two spheres unreasonable?

Also, are you sure its just Russia? As you read this, keep in mind of what NATO stands for (North Atlantic Treaty Organization)...

NATO’s Pivot to China: A Challenging Path


Those crafty Chinese... moving China closer to Europe. So they feel threatened. Hmmmm... isn't that interesting. So when China moves closer to Europe, NATO feels compelled to get more concerned. But when NATO moves east to Russia, we expect Russia to not have the same concerns?

Europe’s Overlooked Missile Defence Dilemma



OK so here, the claim is that Iran poses a threat to NATO. I suppose those damn Iranians are moving closer to Europe and America, also. So now they feel threatened.

Poland. 1069 they invaded Ukraine/Kiev. 1605 to 1618 they took Moscow after they were invaded first.

France for all of like 6 months back in 1812.

Germany for about 4 years from 1941 to 1945.

Russia occupied Polish territory from 981 to 1051, 1654 to 1667 they permantately pushed their borders, including being part of the dissolution of the Polish Commonwealth in the three partitions in the late 1770s.
1939-1941, 1945-1991
Russia still occupy German territory from 1945 to the present day around Konigsberg in Eastern Prussia. Note the P. And held half the country from 45 to 91.

Acting like Russia is an innocent victim is BS or even equally at fault for the current situation. They are the biggest occupier, literally and figuratively against 2 of the three you listed, while the third lasted all of 6 months more than 200 years ago. While russias actions have lasted decades at minimum.

 

[landscapingvol]

So from what I'm hearing people say in this thread then there should be almost near unanimous agreement that we never should have invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and never should have gotten involved in Syria. Glad to see the majority of you realize that now.

I am split on Afghanistan, at least in terms of the 20 year military presence. Iraq a definite no, and a likely no in Syria but it's complicated

 

[KB5252]

We had the same number of planes and long range missiles. Pretty much equal ability for indiscriminate long range murder and destruction.

"Long range" at that time was a couple of hundred yards. We were not equally armed, but we evened the playing field using what later became known as guerilla tactics.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

US Withholding Intelligence From Ukraine for fear of perceived involvement

The United States is walking a "fine line" when it comes to sharing intelligence with Ukraine without being seen as directly involved, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee said Thursday.

"When it comes to intel-sharing and targeting, that’s a fine line," Smith said in a Thursday interview on MSNBC's Morning Joe. "We are providing some intelligence. We're not providing the type of real time targeting that you see our military having gotten in conflicts like in Iraq."

Providing targeting information "steps over the line, making us participate in the war," the Washington Democrat said, a position echoed by the White House, which maintains that Ukrainians should be the ones on the front lines.

US withholding intelligence from Ukraine for fear of perceived involvement

 

[0nelilreb]

lol...
You may want to reference the bolded portion of my post.

“ Equally armed “.. nobody had planes then. They had better weapons ( cannons that fired missiles ) more and better pistols and long rifles , more men and were the greatest military force in the world at that time . . We are talking about a good argument for the 2a which you think is absurd . I don’t think any human being should have to wait just hours before being invaded for their government to approve a right to bear arms . That is what seems absurd to me .

 

[midnight orange]

You do understand that a large portion of those casualties were a direct result of suicide bombings and attacks by other groups fighting in Iraq not just the US military?

That offers me no solace whatsoever. We were unjustifiably there and are responsible. “You break it, you buy it.”

 

[luthervol]

“ Equally armed “.. nobody had planes then. They had better weapons ( cannons that fired missiles ) more and better pistols and long rifles , more men and were the greatest military force in the world at that time . . We are talking about a good argument for the 2a which you think is absurd . I don’t think any human being should have to wait just hours before being invaded for their government to approve a right to bear arms . That is what seems absurd to me .

Like I said, I have no desire to let this be derailed by Raz into a 2a debate.
This is actually one instance where I wish Ukraine could prove the relevance, but unfortunately they are going to be indiscriminately bombed and murdered into defeat.

 

[Matt2496]

Russia is an evil regime.

 

[allvol123]

Russia is an evil regime.

This is completely believable. They are going to have to be brutal to attempt to get people to fall in line.

 

[Matt2496]

This is completely believable. They are going to have to be brutal to attempt to get people to fall in line.

It's weird seeing this level of brutality in a European country modern day. This is the kind of stuff you would expect to see in some Middle Eastern craphole or Europe during WWII.

That is war though.

 

[Matt2496]

Putin is a despotic war criminal that needs to be executed.

 

[volbound1700]

So now that the Russians are inexorably moving forward (as even Ukrainian leadership and probably most real military guys knew they would) the propaganda phase of the Ukrainian Hero will take a back seat to Ukrainian Suffering.

Whereas in the early going all you saw were dead Russians that the heroic forces of Ukraine killed, while losses to Ukr forces were nowhere to be found - now expect to see much more of the blood bath to civilians, old and young, who were caught in the wrong time and place, casualties of war. Crying over dead children, blown apart, the haggard faces and hollow stares of shell shocked humanity staggering about. This is the next phase of information to be filmed and distributed.

Understand that it doesnt mean that isnt true, isnt horrific, though as we have seen already, there will be a number of sensational items that are staged or faked. But in the end, understand what the purpose is. Ukraine has few weapons to fight this war against a much more powerful foe. The main one they have is our humanity, which they will use to try to drag the west into the war to fight Russia for them. They will use their (very real) suffering to gain sympathy and such frustration with inaction that our weak and foolish leaders will enter the fight. It has worked before and Zelenskyy is doing his best to be a Ukrainian Churchill. Expect our own media (right and left) to breathlessly report and magnify each depredation.

You cannot blame them. War has no rules but survival and they are a country that will soon no longer have independent governance and whose leadership will surely be on trial in Moscow. But as every lifeguard knows, drowning people may kill you to save themselves.

I say this only in the hopes that the west is not so foolish. 377k people have died in Yemen and as many as 100k in Tigray in wars that are still ongoing as we speak and yet America will not be entering those fights. Indeed, I suspect 95% of the people who read my post will not have even known that those wars exist and are ongoing.

For the chicken hawks who shriek that he is headed for Poland or the Baltics next, your slip is showing. The Baltics would have been much easier for Putin to take in the first place but he understands that guarantees Nato's involvement. While he is no doubt willing to sacrifice even 10s of thousands of troops to take Ukraine, he has no illusions against openly attacking NATO in a conventional war, and knows that nuclear wars have no winner. Nukes give Russia itself a shield but not his armies. If he can successfully take Ukraine and hold it, whether directly or as a puppet state, he will have shown his military strength and that Russia is to be feared, without risking a multipower war which he is likely to lose. Meanwhile he has to suck up the sanctions, perhaps for years but probably figures in 5-10 years or so, it will have been well worth it.

I wish all this were not so but wishing does not make it change. As I said to someone else, long ago who wished war had not happened in their own time - "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

Belarus and Ukraine are far more valuable to Russia than thee Baltics. They have more farmland, resources, etc. Baltics are nice but they seem like they would be more trouble for Russia than add tangible value.

I think Putin will want Belarus, Ukraine, and possibly Kazakhstan first. Maybe Moldovia as well since they are not in NATO yet.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

You are going to hell in a fiery ball of flames. Chaos, Disorder. Learn to recognize it. Russia has infested volnation.

 

[volbound1700]

It's weird seeing this level of brutality in a European country modern day. This is the kind of stuff you would expect to see in some Middle Eastern craphole or Europe during WWII.

Unfortunately, that is world history. Europe was a constant continent of wars prior to WW2 (WW1, Napoleonic Wars, 100 year war, 60 year war, 80 year war, Seven Year War, War of Austrian Succession, War of Spanish Succession, etc.). I think the state of peace is enforced by the USA right now. As USA continues to diminish, countries feel like they can revert back to the past era of taking lands through force.

USA still has some life left in it but I think by the 2050-2060 timeframe, the national debt/inflation is really going to catch a hold along with the moral decline and the current world order will highly be diminished.

The only reason it hasn't happen yet is the weakness of our opponents. Russia's inability to deal a quick blow to Ukraine is one example. This war has exposed Russia as not being as strong as we thought. I am also now skeptical about the power/threat of the Chinese army as well.

 

[AM64]

Anybody notice the B-52 that cruised down over Romania and flew laps NE of Bucharest? Wasn't far from the Black Sea at that point.

 

[508mikey]

Putin is a despotic war criminal that needs to be executed.

Would already be done if it weren't for the FBI

 

[Franklin Pierce]

Speculation Swirls in wake of Ukrainian Billionaire's Mysterious Suicide in London mansion

The apparent suicide of a Ukrainian oil and gas oligarch earlier this week in his $25 million London mansion is under investigation, and his friends believe his death is somehow connected to Russia's invasion of his homeland.

Mikhail Watford, 66, was found hanged in his garage by his gardener in his luxurious Surrey home Monday. The death was not revealed for several days, and when police divulged it, they deemed it "unexplained, but not suspicious." Still, Watford's horrified friends are giving voice to grim speculation he may have acted because he believed he was on a hit list drawn up in Moscow.

“I find it hard to believe that Misha would have taken his own life," an unnamed neighbor told the Sun. "It doesn’t add up.”

The woman said Watford had been good friends with Russian billionaire Boris Berezovsky, who was found hanged at his nearby home in 2013, and claimed Watford had confided in her that he feared he was on Vladimir Putin's hit list.

Speculation swirls in wake of Ukrainian billionaire's mysterious suicide in London mansion

 

[AM64]

Who would fly them?

And who would fly cover for them? They'd be sitting ducks for Russian fighters without air cover.

 

[RockyTop85]

I am split on Afghanistan, at least in terms of the 20 year military presence. Iraq a definite no, and a likely no in Syria but it's complicated

I agree. One of these things was not like the other.

Al Qaida was a legitimate threat to Americans and the Taliban was supporting them. It was a security issue. Getting stuck there was inevitable but a far closer call than Iraq. Syria is somewhere in between.

 

[508mikey]

Speculation Swirls in wake of Ukrainian Billionaire's Mysterious Suicide in London mansion

The apparent suicide of a Ukrainian oil and gas oligarch earlier this week in his $25 million London mansion is under investigation, and his friends believe his death is somehow connected to Russia's invasion of his homeland.

Mikhail Watford, 66, was found hanged in his garage by his gardener in his luxurious Surrey home Monday. The death was not revealed for several days, and when police divulged it, they deemed it "unexplained, but not suspicious." Still, Watford's horrified friends are giving voice to grim speculation he may have acted because he believed he was on a hit list drawn up in Moscow.

“I find it hard to believe that Misha would have taken his own life," an unnamed neighbor told the Sun. "It doesn’t add up.”

The woman said Watford had been good friends with Russian billionaire Boris Berezovsky, who was found hanged at his nearby home in 2013, and claimed Watford had confided in her that he feared he was on Vladimir Putin's hit list.

Speculation swirls in wake of Ukrainian billionaire's mysterious suicide in London mansion

At least he could afford rope

 

[LouderVol]

That goes both ways. Ukraine was being used to expand NATO. I don’t think it’s super hard to figure out that Putin is not going to allow a NATO force to be built up on its western and southern borders.

Then set up a third party. Separate from Russia and NATO.

Invading ukraine moves russia closer to NATO anyway. It's a wash for Putin. It's really about control and power for Putin not about some magical border.

It's been about power this entire time, why else did they grab Crimea early? Was crimea about to separate from Ukraine and join NATO first?

Either you believe countries can freely determine their own path, or you dont. You and Ras fall into the same trap you complain about. Countries can freely determine themselves if it hurts the west somehow. But as soon as it hurts Russia they cant be left alone to the point of war.

Ras complains about us not staying out of Syria Iraq, Afghanistan and others, but as soon as Russia invades a country he throws out justifications left right and center.

He needs to show consistency as well.

 

[mr.checkerboards]

So from what I'm hearing people say in this thread then there should be almost near unanimous agreement that we never should have invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and never should have gotten involved in Syria. Glad to see the majority of you realize that now.

Afghanistan and Iraq nah. The guy we were after was Saudi Arabian found in Saudi Arabia. That was the place to go not where we did.

 

[DonjoVol]

It seems like I remember Jack Van Impe saying several times on his show that there would be a conflict between Russia and the EU. He also would point out quotes from politicians and other key figures calling for a New World Order. No wonder they wanted this man thrown off the air.