War in Ukraine

[Rasputin_Vol]

Quite a bit. Watch this documentary:

Remember, the original Nazis started as a fringe group as well.

A fringe group that had a lot of things fall in their favor based on the draconian Versailles Treaty reparations and the worldwide Great Depression in the early 1930s.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Perhaps saved 60 million lives including over 100,000 Americans for one.

Back then, we declared war and followed the Constitution. So how many people would have voted for war in 1939?

 

[volbound1700]

A fringe group that had a lot of things fall in their favor based on the draconian Versailles Treaty reparations and the worldwide Great Depression in the early 1930s.

And you don't see similar situations today with the breakdown in the logistical system, COVID-19, etc.? Watch the video and get back to me. Heck there are a lot more videos out there about it.

I know you are a coward and I don't see you even being able to survive in any society pre-1950.

 

[volbound1700]

Back then, we declared war and followed the Constitution. So how many people would have voted for war in 1939?

Not a lot and that was the issue. Our inactiveness helped aid Hitler's rise and the escalation of the worse conflict in human history. Had USA joined League of Nations, I doubt WW2 happens.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Not a lot and that was the issue. Our inactiveness helped aid Hitler's rise and the escalation of the worse conflict in human history. Had USA joined League of Nations, I doubt WW2 happens.

WOW... so now you are saying we should have joined the League of Nations?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

And you don't see similar situations today with the breakdown in the logistical system, COVID-19, etc.? Watch the video and get back to me. Heck there are a lot more videos out there about it.

I know you are a coward and I don't see you even being able to survive in any society pre-1950.

After all of these lockdowns and mandates, I think it will be extremely difficult for a group notorious for being even more authoritarian than Merkel and this bunch to gain a lot of traction. I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible, but I'm saying that it is unlikely for lightning to strike twice right now.

 

[volbound1700]

After all of these lockdowns and mandates, I think it will be extremely difficult for a group notorious for being even more authoritarian than Merkel and this bunch to gain a lot of traction. I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible, but I'm saying that it is unlikely for lightning to strike twice right now.

You underestimate the ability of the human race to give into radicalism. Look at our politics right now on both sides of the aisle. The temperature right now is perfect for radicalism because people's live are disrupted. The economic decline of Europe over the last 10 years is not helping the situation as well. Things haven't been that great (especially outside the USA) since pre-2008. WW2 also does not happen if not for the Great Depression.

 

[volbound1700]

WOW... so now you are saying we should have joined the League of Nations?

Actually yes, Mussolini likely doesn't invade Ethopia if UK, France, and USA are all together as Allies and Germany doesn't go into Czechoslovakia.

The reason the USA created the UN, Nation, EU, etc. was to avoid these very European Wars that you are referencing. NATO was partially a deterrent to the Soviet Union but a major part of the logic was that if we could unite Europe into major defense and economic unions, they would get away from their petty rivalries that created two World Wars (arguably three if you consider the Seven Years War as most people now consider it the real WW1).

 

[volbound1700]

Hell, there is a lot of similarities between the Russia Federation in 2022 and Nazi Germany in 1930s.

Both seem to have semi-Fascist style governments

Both use minorities living in other nations as justification for aggressive actions

Both have engaged in land grabs

Both are heavily militarized regimes and very open to resorting to military threats to get what they want

Both have went through a traumatic collapse that saw significant loss of land, prestige, and economic hardship (Germany in 1918 with Versailles treaty, Russia in 1991 with breakup of Soviet Union and loss of over 30% of their territory and people).

Both consider the West week and are using divide and conquer propaganda to weaken their enemies and justify their actions.

I do think Putin isn't necessarily Hitler. He doesn't have a crazy, racial viewpoint of the world that put a fight for survival type focus into his mind. The scary thing about Hitler was he actually legitimately believed the warped worldview he preached even up to his last quotes.

 

[VolStrom]

Why is that? The United States doesn't enter wars unless it has a benefit to us.

Face it, sometimes you have to fight. If you don't, someone else feels the vacuum. In many issues with the past wars, it would have worked better had the USA joined earlier. Let's say USA joined WW2 in 1939 when it broke out, I doubt France falls and Hitler is probably overthrown with Germany surrendering in 1941. The whole reason the war escalated was Hitler's victory over France pushed Germany 100% behind him and brought other European nations into the Axis (Italy, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.).

USA joins WW2 in 1939, none of that happens. This is why we intervene now. You cannot just sit in a cave and hope it goes away. History doesn't work like that and the countries that try to follow that mentality usually die.

So what benefit was it to us when we joined WW2 in December 1941? We stayed out of the war until the Japanese invaded Pearl Harbor and the next day Hitler declared war on us as well. We just killed a half a million US soldiers over the next few years, so what right?

 

[volbound1700]

So what benefit was it to us when we joined WW2 in December 1941? We stayed out of the war until the Japanese invaded Pearl Harbor and the next day Hitler declared war on us as well. We just killed a half a million US soldiers over the next few years, so what right?

The benefit was not getting conquered. I think that should be easy to understand. WW2 was the last true war the USA really fought and the last war in which the USA's survival was at stake (even if it is very remote to consider an Axis occupation of the USA, it was still a possibility).

 

[VolStrom]

The benefit was not getting conquered. I think that should be easy to understand. WW2 was the last true war the USA really fought and the last war in which the USA's survival was at stake (even if it is very remote to consider an Axis occupation of the USA, it was still a possibility).

So we protected the motherland, Europe? The chances of the US being invaded and conquered is slim to zip dot sh!t.

 

[volbound1700]

So we protected the motherland, Europe? The chances of the US being invaded and conquered is slim to zip dot sh!t.

We eliminate the threat before it becomes a threat. Basically you take out Germany before they are fully mobilized, when the population is not 100% behind Hitler and the Nazis, and prior to Hitler gaining additional allies in Europe as I pointed out. It also scares Japan from being too aggressive since they know have to worry about war with a UK, France, and USA Alliance that could come after them with their full force instead of being a side-show (UK allocated very little resources to fight the Japanese due to its already over commitment of forces in Europe and Africa and France had been already defeated when Japan started flexing its muscle).

This is why the USA has acted the way it has acted since 1950. It changed its policy towards the world. Sure it has made horrible mistakes (Vietnam) with its commitment of forces but it definitely realized that our foreign policy prior to WW2 did NOT work.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You underestimate the ability of the human race to give into radicalism. Look at our politics right now on both sides of the aisle. The temperature right now is perfect for radicalism because people's live are disrupted. The economic decline of Europe over the last 10 years is not helping the situation as well. Things haven't been that great (especially outside the USA) since pre-2008. WW2 also does not happen if not for the Great Depression.

No I don't. I've seen first hand over the last two years how easy it is. I'm saying that for right now, neo-Nazis are not what you need to be concerned about as a highly likely scenario in Germany, much less them getting enough power to go after Danzig,
Alsace–Lorraine, Tanzania and Zanzibar, etc...

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You underestimate the ability of the human race to give into radicalism. Look at our politics right now on both sides of the aisle. The temperature right now is perfect for radicalism because people's live are disrupted. The economic decline of Europe over the last 10 years is not helping the situation as well. Things haven't been that great (especially outside the USA) since pre-2008. WW2 also does not happen if not for the Great Depression.

Also, one way to alleviate a lot of these external pressures would be to turn away from war and try to look for mutually beneficial trade among your neighbors.

 

[volbound1700]

No I don't. I've seen first hand over the last two years how easy it is. I'm saying that for right now, neo-Nazis are not what you need to be concerned about as a highly likely scenario in Germany, much less them getting enough power to go after Danzig,
Alsace–Lorraine, Tanzania and Zanzibar, etc...

Sure, China, Russia, and our own government maybe more of an issue right now but a war breaks out, I am just pointing out that these underground movements may get more legitimacy in Germany and Germany may turn back to its old ways. There is still a lot of pride with Germans.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The reason the USA created the UN, Nation, EU, etc. was to avoid these very European Wars that you are referencing. NATO was partially a deterrent to the Soviet Union but a major part of the logic was that if we could unite Europe into major defense and economic unions, they would get away from their petty rivalries that created two World Wars (arguably three if you consider the Seven Years War as most people now consider it the real WW1).

It is not and should not be the United States job to police, stabilize or bail out Europe.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Sure, China, Russia, and our own government maybe more of an issue right now but a war breaks out, I am just pointing out that these underground movements may get more legitimacy in Germany and Germany may turn back to its old ways. There is still a lot of pride with Germans.

Maybe. I don't deny that and I did say it is a chance it could happen. I'm just saying that at this point, I don't think it would be the same as it was in 1933.

 

[volbound1700]

Also, one way to alleviate a lot of these external pressures would be to turn away from war and try to look for mutually beneficial trade among your neighbors.

Ask Poland (1939), Czechoslovakia (1938), Belgium (1914 and 1940), Netherlands (1940), Denmark (1940), Norway (1940), Ethiopia (1933), China (1937), Soviet Union (1941), United States (1941), Greece (1941), Yugoslavia (1941), Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania (1940), etc. how that went?

Do you really think any of these nations wanted war? Do you not think they tried what you described.

Hell ask Ukraine RIGHT NOW about it.

 

[volbound1700]

It is not and should not be the United States job to police, stabilize or bail out Europe.

History says that their wars (along with East Asia's wars) eventually can turn into our wars. We are going to be brought into it eventually so why not stop it before it turns into a firestorm. Again, that is the logic with WW2. USA joins it from the onset or even stands up to Germany in 1938 when it threatened Czechoslovakia, the war never happens.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Ask Poland (1939), Czechoslovakia (1938), Belgium (1914 and 1940), Netherlands (1940), Denmark (1940), Norway (1940), Ethiopia (1933), China (1937), Soviet Union (1941), United States (1941), Greece (1941), Yugoslavia (1941), Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania (1940), etc. how that went?

Do you really think any of these nations wanted war? Do you not think they tried what you described.

Hell ask Ukraine RIGHT NOW about it.

Just looking at your timeline, instead of the United States, you could make the case that the USSR should have been fighting Germany in 1939 instead of agreeing with the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

History says that their wars (along with East Asia's wars) eventually can turn into our wars.

How can you say that? There is no direct evidence of that if we stay out of the way of these conflicts. Zero evidence of any of this.

And yes, I include the sinking of The Lusitania and Pearl Harbor as examples of us getting hit because we were involved and poking our nose where it didn't belong.

 

[volbound1700]

Just looking at your timeline, instead of the United States, you could make the case that the USSR should have been fighting Germany in 1939 instead of agreeing with the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

Yes but they would have lost in 1939 for a variety of reasons:

1. Officer Purge
2. Poor Mobilization
3. Lack of understanding of Blitzkrieg tactics that they had in 1941
4. Lack of Lend-Lease support from USA

Also, the USSR wasn't necessarily a trustworthy power and many problems happened after the war related to Joseph Stalin. There is a reason that Stalin is unfavorable compared to Hitler. (I personally think Hitler was far worse than Stalin but Stalin had his issues).

 

[volbound1700]

How can you say that? There is no direct evidence of that if we stay out of the way of these conflicts. Zero evidence of any of this.

And yes, I include the sinking of The Lusitania and Pearl Harbor as examples of us getting hit because we were involved and poking our nose where it didn't belong.

Wars expand, they always do. Also there is this phrase called power or influence. If you are not growing and expanding, you are going to get conquered. Weak nations who thought like you do such as the ancient Phoenicians usually get conquered by aggressive states like the Assyrians, Romans, Persians, etc. It is just the way of history. As the Romans put it, the strong rule the weak.

Let's play out your scenario and USA stays out of WW2 despite being attacked. Japan succeeds in conquering China and Germany likely takes out UK through Submarine warfare and then USSR.

Germany then initiates Hitler's plan of exterminating the Slavic and Jewish people while Japan grows its Pacific Fleet. Both have the necessary resources when it comes to raw materials, factories, etc. to build massive naval armadas to take out the USA navy. USA is also now isolated from international trade, resources, partners, etc. It would only be a matter of time before Hitler goes after the USA for its protection of "Jews" and without the USSR or UK (or worse them under his thumb including their factories, raw materials, dockyards, etc.), Germany is very likely to win.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yes but they would have lost in 1939 for a variety of reasons:

1. Officer Purge
2. Poor Mobilization
3. Lack of understanding of Blitzkrieg tactics that they had in 1941
4. Lack of Lend-Lease support from USA

Also, the USSR wasn't necessarily a trustworthy power and many problems happened after the war related to Joseph Stalin. There is a reason that Stalin is unfavorable compared to Hitler. (I personally think Hitler was far worse than Stalin but Stalin had his issues).

There likely wouldn't have been a Winter War with Finland had Russia been in the war in 1939, also.

None of that even matters, however. The point is that the countries that are nearest to the conflict have the most to gain/lose by taking some action.

That isn't the US's concern. Let Europe do their own thing and burn themselves out.