War in Ukraine

[allvol123]

It is not and should not be the United States job to police, stabilize or bail out Europe.

It is self interest, not policing.

 

[volbound1700]

It is self interest, not policing.

Small minded people don't understand this fact.

What happens in Europe impacts us here, dramatically.

 

[volbound1700]

There likely wouldn't have been a Winter War with Finland had Russia been in the war in 1939, also.

None of that even matters, however. The point is that the countries that are nearest to the conflict have the most to gain/lose by taking some action.

That isn't the US's concern. Let Europe do their own thing and burn themselves out.

Unfortunately what happens in the rest of the world impacts us. Even more today than in the 1930s. Go around your house and look at all of the products that are from overseas. Our economy would totally crash and you and everyone on here may likely lose their jobs if we just let Russia do what it wants in Europe. The war would also expand to a point where we would be pushed into it anyways.

 

[allvol123]

Small minded people don't understand this fact.

What happens in Europe impacts us here, dramatically.

The “we should mind our own business” mentality is so ridiculous. I certainly don’t have the answers but that mindset is absurdly naive.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Let's play out your scenario and USA stays out of WW2 despite being attacked. Japan succeeds in conquering China and Germany likely takes out UK through Submarine warfare and then USSR.

Well first off, the Japanese wouldn't have attacked us had we not placed an embargo on oil/energy imports.

Also, Germany would have had their hands full dealing with Britain, France and Russia and trying to maintain order.

Germany then initiates Hitler's plan of exterminating the Slavic and Jewish people while Japan grows its Pacific Fleet. Both have the necessary resources when it comes to raw materials, factories, etc. to build massive naval armadas to take out the USA navy. USA is also now isolated from international trade, resources, partners, etc. It would only be a matter of time before Hitler goes after the USA for its protection of "Jews" and without the USSR or UK (or worse them under his thumb including their factories, raw materials, dockyards, etc.), Germany is very likely to win.

Why is the US Navy in Asia to begin with?

And with the US being neutral and not taking any sides in any of these conflicts, what reason would there be for Germany or Japan in your doomsday scenario to not trade with us? I don't care about being "partners" with these far flung countries.

Lastly, The Germans (nor Japanese) would not have been able to conquer the United States. That is just crazy fear porn. They would have been burning resources just to maintain France, Britain and USSR, then on top of that, they are going to cross the Atlantic and conquer a high armed citizenry?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Small minded people don't understand this fact.

What happens in Europe impacts us here, dramatically.

How?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Unfortunately what happens in the rest of the world impacts us. Even more today than in the 1930s. Go around your house and look at all of the products that are from overseas. Our economy would totally crash and you and everyone on here may likely lose their jobs if we just let Russia do what it wants in Europe. The war would also expand to a point where we would be pushed into it anyways.

90% of this stuff used to be made here. Don't give me that nonsense.

And if we are neutral militarily, there is no need for any of these countries to not engage in trade with us. So your doomsday scenario is not based on just common sense.

 

[volbound1700]

Well first off, the Japanese wouldn't have attacked us had we not placed an embargo on oil/energy imports.

Also, Germany would have had their hands full dealing with Britain, France and Russia and trying to maintain order.



Why is the US Navy in Asia to begin with?

And with the US being neutral and not taking any sides in any of these conflicts, what reason would there be for Germany or Japan in your doomsday scenario to not trade with us? I don't care about being "partners" with these far flung countries.

Lastly, The Germans (nor Japanese) would not have been able to conquer the United States. That is just crazy fear porn. They would have been burning resources just to maintain France, Britain and USSR, then on top of that, they are going to cross the Atlantic and conquer a high armed citizenry?

You are thinking short-term and not actually consider the full ramifications of this situation (which is not surprising because all you really are looking to do is argue instead of thoughtful considering other peoples discussions).

Germany would build up. Sure they wouldn't attack USA in 1945 but eventually they would have dealt with the countries you listed (they had already dealt with France btw) and then turned their attention against USA. They definitely would not trade with the USA unless we agree to kill all of our Jews or something stupid and cruel like that.

Japan wanted more than China, they saw us as their primary geo-political rivalry. Going into China was Japan's way of eventually surpassing the USA by getting the proper resources they could not get in Japan. If you don't think they would attack us eventually (no matter what the USA did) you are nuts. There own internal documents spell out these facts. We were on their target list eventually.

Your actions would only delay the conflict and put the USA in a far more challenging (if not hopeless) situation.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Unfortunately what happens in the rest of the world impacts us. Even more today than in the 1930s. Go around your house and look at all of the products that are from overseas. Our economy would totally crash and you and everyone on here may likely lose their jobs if we just let Russia do what it wants in Europe. The war would also expand to a point where we would be pushed into it anyways.

No, the only way that Russia can really do damage to this country is if they attack our USD.

You need to be far more worried about that happening than Russia attacking some obscure/random country in Eastern Europe.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The “we should mind our own business” mentality is so ridiculous. I certainly don’t have the answers but that mindset is absurdly naive.

We haven't tried the "mind your own business" policy in my lifetime or in my grandfathers lifetime. So how do you know if it will work or not?

 

[volbound1700]

No, the only way that Russia can really do damage to this country is if they attack our USD.

You need to be far more worried about that happening than Russia attacking some obscure/random country in Eastern Europe.

Wrong and second do you not see any correlation between the two points you are describing here? If Russia attacks Ukraine (the second largest nation in Europe by land and population), they likely would threaten US trade and dollars in Ukraine. Furthermore if they take on Europe and win, they would really impact the USD.

 

[volbound1700]

We haven't tried the "mind your own business" policy in my lifetime or in my grandfathers lifetime. So how do you know if it will work or not?

Ugh... yes the USA did in the 1930s, it did not work.

Other countries tried it to. What about Denmark in 1940? I noticed how you ducked my post about all of the countries who tried your plan and got attacked in the past.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You are thinking short-term and not actually consider the full ramifications of this situation (which is not surprising because all you really are looking to do is argue instead of thoughtful considering other peoples discussions).

I used to hold these same beliefs, so I have thoroughly thought them out. Hell, this is the propaganda that is pushed by our govt and media, so it is the popular view of how the world works. I'm fully aware I am in the minority on this line of thinking, but its not because I reached this side of the fence due to kneejerk thinking or a cursory study of all of the facts.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Germany would build up. Sure they wouldn't attack USA in 1945 but eventually they would have dealt with the countries you listed (they had already dealt with France btw) and then turned their attention against USA. They definitely would not trade with the USA unless we agree to kill all of our Jews or something stupid and cruel like that.

I am fully aware of that. I said they would have to still maintain and govern these areas after conquering them, as well.

 

[allvol123]

We haven't tried the "mind your own business" policy in my lifetime or in my grandfathers lifetime. So how do you know if it will work or not?

Because I know human nature. We have nice **** and as long as there are bad actors in the world, which there always will be, minding your own business isn’t going to work.

 

[volbound1700]

I used to hold these same beliefs, so I have thoroughly thought them out. Hell, this is the propaganda that is pushed by our govt and media, so it is the popular view of how the world works. I'm fully aware I am in the minority on this line of thinking, but its not because I reached this side of the fence due to kneejerk thinking or a cursory study of all of the facts.

1. A minority doesn't hold your view point. However, a majority that have ever been in a position that have had access to real world experience on these matters have NOT held your viewpoints
2. It isn't propaganda, it is history. In fact, IMO, the world today is mostly an illusion held together by the USA superpower status. History shows that nations grow, conquer, and expand or they collapse. This is the story of history. The world is more like Risk or Europa Universalis 4 in mentality than it is your view point historically. Want proof, pick any major power in history such as the Roman Republic, British, etc. and give them your mentality? They would likely end up being conquered and occupied by their geo-political rival. (In the case of Rome, Carthage or Greece; in the case of the British, France or Germany, etc.).

When the USA falls, you can likely say bye bye to many of these small nations that depend on other countries for protection like Luxembourg.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Japan wanted more than China, they saw us as their primary geo-political rivalry. Going into China was Japan's way of eventually surpassing the USA by getting the proper resources they could not get in Japan. If you don't think they would attack us eventually (no matter what the USA did) you are nuts. There own internal documents spell out these facts. We were on their target list eventually.

Had we been neutral, what incentive would they have had to even try? The only case you could really make is maybe The Philippines and Guam at the time because they ae in their sphere of influence. And I'm only throwing that out there because had we been neutral, there may have been diplomatic means to resolve that.

 

[volbound1700]

Had we been neutral, what incentive would they have had to even try? The only case you could really make is maybe The Philippines and Guam at the time because they ae in their sphere of influence. And I'm only throwing that out there because had we been neutral, there may have been diplomatic means to resolve that.

Imperial Japan wanted to be the top dog in the Pacific. It was a national pride focus. Imperial Japan saw their ascendency by making the USA their foot stool.

Countries think that way. That is how the world works. How do you think WW1 happen? Go read about it. All of the countries involved had ideas of trying to dominate Europe (and eventually the world).

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Wrong and second do you not see any correlation between the two points you are describing here? If Russia attacks Ukraine (the second largest nation in Europe by land and population), they likely would threaten US trade and dollars in Ukraine. Furthermore if they take on Europe and win, they would really impact the USD.

I see you have little to no faith in Europe being able to defend itself.

Also, the USD is nothing more than a Ponzi scheme and corrupt system that needs to collapse and be replaced. Americans (the world for that matter) would be far better off if this USD system went belly up and we returned to a sound money system that couldn't inflate away your currency's value and load the next generation with tons of debt. Not just personal debt, but national debt that has to be paid back in taxes and austere measures.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Ugh... yes the USA did in the 1930s, it did not work.

Other countries tried it to. What about Denmark in 1940? I noticed how you ducked my post about all of the countries who tried your plan and got attacked in the past.

What does Denmark, which borders Germany, have to do with the US, which is separated by an ocean? There was no immediate (or tertiary) threat that Germany posed to Main Street USA.

 

[volbound1700]

I see you have little to no faith in Europe being able to defend itself.

Also, the USD is nothing more than a Ponzi scheme and corrupt system that needs to collapse and be replaced. Americans (the world for that matter) would be far better off if this USD system went belly up and we returned to a sound money system that couldn't inflate away your currency's value and load the next generation with tons of debt. Not just personal debt, but national debt that has to be paid back in taxes and austere measures.

That is way off topic and probably could use its own thread. I don't 100% disagree with you but some of your discussion sounds borderline crazy/conspiracy theorist as well. National Debt is definitely our top problem.

A major European War would have drastic economic impacts on us. To say otherwise is just trolling at this point.

Hell, using my examples, explain how Ethiopia could have avoided war with Italy in 1933? They were not even in Europe or bordered Italy. They followed your stick to themselves strategy to a teeth and it did not help them.

 

[volbound1700]

What does Denmark, which borders Germany, have to do with the US, which is separated by an ocean? There was no immediate (or tertiary) threat that Germany posed to Main Street USA.

Explain Ethiopia then or Yugoslavia, they don't border Germany/Italy. Norway didn't border Germany.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Other countries tried it to. What about Denmark in 1940? I noticed how you ducked my post about all of the countries who tried your plan and got attacked in the past.

I didn't duck it. Firstly, I addressed that in that post, you made a better case for Russia entering the war in 1939 instead of the United States. But secondly, those countries were mostly European countries (I'll have to go back and see who all you listed). Those countries need to defend themselves.

 

[VolStrom]

You guys are verbally fighting a war from 80 years ago like it matters today. F Europe, they are more than capable of defending themselves with up to nuclear weapons if need be. They don't need our help unless they are willing to pay dearly for it.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Imperial Japan wanted to be the top dog in the Pacific. It was a national pride focus. Imperial Japan saw their ascendency by making the USA their foot stool.

Countries think that way. That is how the world works. How do you think WW1 happen? Go read about it. All of the countries involved had ideas of trying to dominate Europe (and eventually the world).

WWI was essentially a war between Germany and the British Empire. The two had been building up a rivalry for the decades leading up to 1914. The British Empire was going into decline and the Germany states were rising due to their economic/industrial power. This threatened Britain. Throw in some German colonies in Africa and now parts of Britain's empire was in jeopardy there. Also throw in a buddying alliance with Germany, and The Ottomans for trying to pull energy resources out of the Middle East at the time and you had those colonies and interests of Britain at stake. All it took was all of these European intermingling alliances to get kicked of in a random event in Sarajevo for the eventual main combatants to finally get it on.

Also, another angle was that Britain could NOT allow the Russian Empire to fill the void that Germany would have left so they helped to organize a coup against the tsar. Russia and the Brits had also been rivals in the Great Game that was slowly fizzling out in Central Asia by 1914.

In essence, WWI boiled down to a last gasp effort by the Brits to maintain their empire that was in decline.