War in Ukraine

[Rasputin_Vol]

I agree, there is no concrete answer but it is somewhere between zero and a million.

How about we split it down the middle at a half million?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

That's a different question. There was a comment stating that world war as a result of a no fly zone conflict would be solely Putin's responsibility, hence my reply.
I'm no fan of appeasement but I'm also no fan of WWIII. At this point I don't think US war against Russia is a good idea. There are other ways to contain them.

There are two problems with that last sentence:
1. We don't have the ability to leverage Russia or China anymore. Our leadership has failed us over the last 30 or so years. Really, since WWII.
2. We no longer hold the moral high ground, nor are we collectively a moral people, therefore, we really don't have much influence outside of our perceived military might.

 

[AM64]

Respectfully you don't know how bad we have screwed them if you think our response has been weak. And before someone yells what about us buying gas from them, we need a point to negotiate. If you do this we do this.

Somebody obviously needs to explain that to the Russian government then, because I don't think the Ukrainian people would see it the same way.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Democrats set up clash with GOP by Pairing Covid relief with Ukraine aid

(CNN) Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill are set for a showdown over Covid-19 relief that threatens to hold up desperately needed aid to Ukraine as the country fights back against Russia's invasion.

House Democrats plan to introduce a massive bill as soon as Tuesday that would extend government funding through the end of September -- and include roughly $10 billion to help bolster Ukraine, according to two Democratic sources. But they are setting up a clash with Republicans over Covid relief money expected to be included in the sweeping package.

Negotiations will take place this week to try to secure a deal to pass the bill before a March 11 deadline when government funding expires. Lawmakers are expected to avoid a shutdown, but if a broad funding package doesn't move quickly, they may be forced to pass another short-term stopgap funding measure.

Democrats set up clash with GOP by pairing Covid relief with Ukraine aid - CNNPolitics

If they play games kill them both.

 

[kiddiedoc]

You need to start asking yourself... if you know they spread propaganda and BS during COVID, what makes you think they are not doing the same thing right now? And for that matter, should I trust the narrative they are telling me (Russia/Putin bad, Ukraine good)? Or is it a bit more complex and nuanced than that, at best, or is the narrative they are telling an out right lie.

Put your thinking cap on...

Oh, it's definitely more complex, and I'm not by any means schooled on Ukrainian-Russian relations, nor our behind-the-scenes involvement over there.

The facts remains that Putin definitely HAS invaded a sovereign nation, killed innocent civilians, and threatened catastrophic aggression. That's where I'm stuck. Just not sure where you go from here.

 

[volfanhill]

Somebody obviously needs to explain that to the Russian government then, because I don't think the Ukrainian people would see it the same way.

If you think sanctions work that quickly then all you are interested in is direct conflict. And we can be honest and not pretend like we care that much about the Ukrainian people. We have worse track record then Russia when it comes to this ****. I hit RAS hard but he's right about some things.

 

[EasternVol]

I don't. I remember him telling a woman that Obama was a good man as well as not being muslim (although that shouldn't be disqualifying). I also remember W started a whisper campaign about McCain's daughter in the SC primary.

But on the down side, he put Sarah Palin on the national stage.

 

[AM64]

If you think sanctions work that quickly then all you are interested in is direct conflict. And we can be honest and not pretend like we care that much about the Ukrainian people. We have worse track record then Russia when it comes to this ****. I hit RAS hard but he's right about some things.

Then the operative wording would be that we are screwing (or attempting to screw) the Russians not that we have badly screwed them ... if we've done that kind of job on them, they should know it and be responding accordingly.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

If they play games kill them both.

They are taking advantage of our emotions and that is how we always get into trouble in Washington. They thrive on fear and pity of some disadvantaged group or set of victims.

 

[volfanhill]

Then the operative wording would be that we are screwing (or attempting to screw) the Russians not that we have badly screwed them ... if we've done that kind of job on them, they should know it and be responding accordingly.

Our goal was never them not taking Ukraine

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The facts remains that Putin definitely HAS invaded a sovereign nation, killed innocent civilians, and threatened catastrophic aggression. That's where I'm stuck. Just not sure where you go from here.

There was a path for peace that was neglected by Ukraine and the west/US encouraged them to not abide by the Minsk II agreements because they convinced the Ukrainian leadership that the US and NATO would support them. So we put a battery in their backs and now that we have provoked Russia into this mess, NATO is nowhere to be found. Left Ukraine holding the bag.

That didn't help Ukraine or NATO... or really Russia for that matter. There was an easy path to peace that was prevented from happening due to western hubris and arrogance... and financial angles, also.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I remember him being racist as heck when he was running against Obama

I don't know about McCain being racist... I'm not a fan of throwing around the racist card unless it is justified.

There is enough to hate McCain for outside of that to wish he burned in Hell.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Then the operative wording would be that we are screwing (or attempting to screw) the Russians not that we have badly screwed them ... if we've done that kind of job on them, they should know it and be responding accordingly.

They have already suffered through sanctions. They have prepared themselves for this day.

 

[Vol737]

MAD still exists. If Putin launches missiles, he and all his advisors know one thing for certain: MIRVs will be incoming. Everyone dies.

Agree on our untested defense btw.

I’m questioning if that really matters to Putin. His willingness to rattle the nuclear Sabre is not something one would/should normally do lightly, yet he has..bluntly. I’m at about 70% that he could launch if this campaign doesn’t go his way and his country is in economic shambles. He might just say eff it! JMO.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I’m questioning if that really matters to Putin. His willingness to rattle the nuclear Sabre is not something one would/should normally do lightly, yet he has..bluntly. I’m at about 70% that he could launch if this campaign doesn’t go his way and his country is in economic shambles. He might just say eff it! JMO.

Meh, I'm far more worried about our side lobbing one or using a tactical nuke for a false flag event.

 

[Gandalf]

But on the down side, he put Sarah Palin on the national stage.

Sarah Palin is a regular Otto van Bismarck and Nobel prize winning physicist compared to Kamala Harris

 

[Vol737]

Meh, I'm far more worried about our side lobbing one or using a tactical nuke for a false flag event.

Considering our leadership, I’ll concede that.

 

[kiddiedoc]

There was a path for peace that was neglected by Ukraine and the west/US encouraged them to not abide by the Minsk II agreements because they convinced the Ukrainian leadership that the US and NATO would support them. So we put a battery in their backs and now that we have provoked Russia into this mess, NATO is nowhere to be found. Left Ukraine holding the bag.

That didn't help Ukraine or NATO... or really Russia for that matter. There was an easy path to peace that was prevented from happening due to western hubris and arrogance... and financial angles, also.

Ok, so if that is all true, then where do we go from here?

 

[EasternVol]

There are two problems with that last sentence:
1. We don't have the ability to leverage Russia or China anymore. Our leadership has failed us over the last 30 or so years. Really, since WWII.
2. We no longer hold the moral high ground, nor are we collectively a moral people, therefore, we really don't have much influence outside of our perceived military might.

Russia can be contained without a major war at least in the short to mid-term. A hydrocarbon boycott seems the most obvious tool, and there are others. Of course we need cooperation from other countries. China is more problematic but there are ways to limit their reach too.
I don't know that we as a people are any less moral than we ever have been. Sure we're less ostentatiously religious but there's still a sense of right and wrong. As for foreign relations, sometimes our policy seems moral but that's often just coincidence.

 

[AM64]

They have already suffered through sanctions. They have prepared themselves for this day.

It seems absurd to think that the Russian people (or the Chinese) would respond or be allowed to respond to sanctions the same way people in the US would. We have a bad habit of predicting how other countries will respond based on our own thought patterns. For example, we are reacting here to the cost of gas - what is the rate of private car ownership in places like Russia and especially China - and what class in the population own them? A common theme among people who have rapidly amassed wealth seems to be if lost they can always do it again; even the wealthy Russians and Chinese so connected to power are likely more just disturbed and re-motivated than destroyed.

 

[AM64]

They have already suffered through sanctions. They have prepared themselves for this day.

Yep, doubt seriously that the Russian elite have all their wealth in rubbles stashed away in Russian banks.

 

[EasternVol]

Sarah Palin is a regular Otto van Bismarck and Nobel prize winning physicist compared to Kamala Harris

I'd put those two pretty close in intellect. KH is a little more polished (insert joke here) but seems to be an awful person. It would be good to never hear from or about either ever again.

 

[OHvol40]

He became a POS politician once he made it to Washington and to be honest I think he was a POS while he was there. He ended up being a disgrace to our country.

Why is this? Because he wasn’t in lockstep with the republicans? That doesn’t make him a disgrace to this country, it just gets him banned from the cult. ^^^ Case in point

Too many people mistake their political party for “our country.” John McCain gave more for this COUNTRY than most families give in 3 or 4 generations.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

Go get them ghost. I am flying with you.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Ok, so if that is all true, then where do we go from here?

We need to keep our nose out of it.