War in Ukraine

#18,226
#18,226
AM64 said:
Agree. Unless you count having to destroy a place to save it for yourself and alienating all the inhabitants for decades, Russia is definitely not winning. I can't see taking and holding a destroyed land full of people who would slit your throat at any opportunity as winning. It would be a bit like winning against Germany after WW1, and what that win brought next - the difference being that of occupation, and don't bet Russian occupation of Ukraine wouldn't be a lot like French occupation of Vietnam. Uneasy lies the crown - unless Russia were to go the genocide route.
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They are not going to occupy it - cant imagine Putin would be so stupid. They will appoint some friendly gov and then back off. As long as the new gov is basically hostile to NATO troops and CIA funded groups then Russia has its strategic buffer zone. I am sure he would like to straight up take over but they simply dont have the resources for that. Pointless getting shot at all the time unless you fully subjugate and that just does not meet his objectives.

Meanwhile, China will swoop in to offer great terms on their belt and road initiative and own it when Ukraine defaults.
 
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#18,229
#18,229
KB5252 said:
They rejected being a Russian proxy. When that was denied them they looked to the west. They chose, not us. Perhaps it's you rewriting history

Embrace Putin and Russia. Yet they choose to fight for their independence from them. Why do you think that is?
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Obviously Ukrainian Nazis are forcing them to fight Mother Russia.
 
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#18,231
#18,231
Interview with Ukrainian refugees, see transcripts in the twitter thread. Ukraine bombing civilian corridors, Azov killing civilians, civilians beings used as human shields, but Ukraine is the good guys and Russia the bad...the TV tells me so.

 
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#18,234
#18,234
evillawyer said:
Big development
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I cannot imagine any adroit moves coming from our current state dept or genius personal diplomacy from bought and paid for Joe - but if indeed, they do get the Chinese to give Putin a stiff one, I will none the less give them full marks for it and praise, deserved or not.

More likely Xi will have figured out there is some benefit to be gained. Either that or he will condemn Russia publicly to give cover to the tech companies and manufacturers - all the while continuing to trade and do business with Russia. Its the better play really.
 
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#18,236
#18,236
volgr said:
Interview with Ukrainian refugees, see transcripts in the twitter thread. Ukraine bombing civilian corridors, Azov killing civilians, civilians beings used as human shields, but Ukraine is the good guys and Russia the bad...the TV tells me so.

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The truth will come out sooner or later... just like it did with COVID. Just like it did with Iraq. Just like Russian collusion. And so on and so on...
 
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#18,237
#18,237
KB5252 said:
So you are saying Biden wants a no fly zone?
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Maybe if they can get off a false flag. Then they would have the manufactured consent they need that might be used to persuade the Pentagon and other NATO countries.

But right now, I give them credit for right now, the Pentagon hasn't bitten just yet. This could all change, however.
 
#18,238
#18,238
KB5252 said:
To prop him up against the will of the people he was engaged in murdering..... Let's call it what it was. We are there now to protect Kurds who would be in the receiving end of reprisals no? Any leader who has to murder his people to stay in power is not legitimate.
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I don't see anyone in Syria angry about Assad's leadership.
 
#18,239
#18,239
volgr said:
Yeah, you see a lot of Washington, Jefferson, Adams and Madisons in that group? You guys are ao full of crap. Also, the will of the people wasnt to be a US proxy state, but nice rewrite of history.
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No more or less I reckon than you see in the Politburo.

The people are fighting for that 'proxy' state; why do you feel compelled to feel some outrage for them that they don't? How is it "you guys" deflect every criticism of Russia, China, whomever with a critique of the U.S.? Not just every now and then, but every damned one. It goes beyond objective criticism of this country when you find no capacity to say "Putin is an authoritarian and Soviet minded people like him have kept the nation a relative backwater nation for decades, and bent on decades more. We have our warts but are a clearly superior nation example, as is any Western nation."

I think "you guys" bring either an anarcho-cap or anarcho-Marxian sympathy to the table. If not "you guys" better get your head screwed on that perfect is the enemy of good and better, and apologia and propaganda for much worse.
 
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#18,240
#18,240
Weezer said:
How dare the Ukraine self-govern and not bend to the will of a completely separate country. Seriously, how the hell did Ukraine "pick a fight"? A sovereign country making decisions for itself doesn't equal "picking a fight". Invading that sovereign country because you don't like their decisions, now that's picking a fight.
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They haven't self-governed since the 2014 US lead coup.
 
#18,241
#18,241
evillawyer said:
Big development
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China watching Russia and the West at war.

5gp.gif
 
#18,245
#18,245
NCFisher said:
No more or less I reckon than you see in the Politburo.

The people are fighting for that 'proxy' state; why do you feel compelled to feel some outrage for them that they don't? How is it "you guys" deflect every criticism of Russia, China, whomever with a critique of the U.S.? Not just every now and then, but every damned one. It goes beyond objective criticism of this country when you find no capacity to say "Putin is an authoritarian and Soviet minded people like him have kept the nation a relative backwater nation for decades, and bent on decades more. We have our warts but are a clearly superior nation example, as is any Western nation."
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It is no surprise some Ukrainians are fighting Russia, some are fleeing to Russia and some are fleeing to other countries. It is well known this Country has split allegiances.

As for deflecting critique, I dont deflect accurate and justified critique but I'm not going to virtue signal and pretend the US has any high ground by which to moralize to other Countries.

Putin, for all his warts, has turned his Nation around for the better. No they arent a Western type Democracy but their people dont want that. I know that is hard for some Americans to understand but not everyone wants our lifestyle. It can get a lot worse than Putin, as past history has shown.
 
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#18,246
#18,246
evillawyer said:
China can sit this one out and swoop in to make Russia their b*tch when this is all over. China sitting real pretty right now.
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I can't remember who but someone likened the Putin-Xi discussion at the Olympics to two kids standing at a cliff above a lake.

"Go ahead, you jump first," Xi says, watching to see what happens.
 
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#18,247
#18,247
volgr said:
It is no surprise some Ukrainians are fighting Russia, some are fleeing to Russia and some are fleeing to other countries. It is well known this Country has split allegiances.

As for deflecting critique, I dont deflect accurate and justified critique but I'm not going to virtue signal and pretend the US has any high ground by which to moralize to other Countries.

Putin, for all his warts, has turned his Nation around for the better. No they arent a Western type Democracy but their people dont want that. I know that is hard for some Americans to understand but not everyone wants our lifestyle. It can get a lot worse than Putin, as past history has shown.
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Funny, you would be praising Hitler in the late 1930s because he was making life better for Germans and was loved by the German people.
 
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#18,248
#18,248
Gandalf said:
I cannot imagine any adroit moves coming from our current state dept or genius personal diplomacy from bought and paid for Joe - but if indeed, they do get the Chinese to give Putin a stiff one, I will none the less give them full marks for it and praise, deserved or not.

More likely Xi will have figured out there is some benefit to be gained. Either that or he will condemn Russia publicly to give cover to the tech companies and manufacturers - all the while continuing to trade and do business with Russia. Its the better play really.
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Sir you get a like for making me look up the meaning of Adroit. Very well done , and thank you for expanding my vocabulary.
 
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#18,249
#18,249
volgr said:
It is no surprise some Ukrainians are fighting Russia, some are fleeing to Russia and some are fleeing to other countries. It is well known this Country has split allegiances.

As for deflecting critique, I dont deflect accurate and justified critique but I'm not going to virtue signal and pretend the US has any high ground by which to moralize to other Countries.

Putin, for all his warts, has turned his Nation around for the better. No they arent a Western type Democracy but their people dont want that. I know that is hard for some Americans to understand but not everyone wants our lifestyle. It can get a lot worse than Putin, as past history has shown.
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It's mostly women, children and elderly being relocated by people who care for them and has nothing to do with allegiance to Russia.

But the U.S. does have moral high ground and is a clearly superior nation by any measure to Russia. Russia has gone from backwater to outhouse. 11th largest economy but with a per capita GDP of $10.1K. With Russia's natural resources, they should nearly autopilot to affluence. Putin and people like him are the problem, not Ukraine aspiring to a Western construct of society.

You can no more speak for what Russians want than Ukrainians you project onto. Russian people have been underwater so long they don't know what being dry feels like. Ask Russians HERE or any Western nation if they'd prefer Putin; at minimum you'll be laughed at.

It can get so much better than Putin, too, as Western society - and Russian feet - attest.
 
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