War in Ukraine

#18,377
#18,377
volgr said:
I've been clear that they are a split Country. Many of them will fight to their last breath not to be Russian, but there are many who either want to be independent or at worst Russian. They do not see themselves as Ukrainian.
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Zelensky's primary campaign promise was to end the Donbas conflict and took office with about an 80% approval. Large swings have ensued. His approval since the invasion began has exploded from a mid-30ish% to >90%. Even if one weighted with a ridiculous MOE of 10%, his leadership against Russia is overwhelmingly popular.

That is not "a split country" and you are peddling Russian propaganda. Clearly Ukrainians did not view the Donbas promise as kissing Russia's ass by relinquishing more Ukrainian territory.
 
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#18,378
#18,378
Rasputin_Vol said:
You still don't get it. The United States inserted themselves in both situations to initiate the conflicts in both Syria and Ukraine. The Russians, in both instances were called in to respond. Further, the United States has done nothing but take hardliners in both incidents when it comes to bringing down tensions. And lastly, in both situations, the United States flooded the area with weapons and support and allowed the conflicts to fester on for far longer than necessary.
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"The Ukrainians should just take there beating and suck it up, fighting back just makes it worse."

You're either a Russian troll or French.
 
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#18,379
#18,379
NCFisher said:
...is analogous to poisoning and imprisoning a political candidate? And numerous other dissidents, opponents, journos including Kara-Murza, Litvinenko, the Skirpals, Verzilov? Critics of Putin find themselves irradiated, poisoned, or a bullet to their head with uncommon regularity.

Keep wallowing in filth making outlandish correlations and you become corrupt.
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We're imprisoning journalists, running them into exile and censoring them right here in the United States... and of things continue on the path we are taking, it will get far worse.
 
#18,380
#18,380
Septic said:
He sent three days worth of food with his soldiers. Either they were expecting to only need three days or they were absolutely incompetent.

Either way, it makes Putin and his pathetic excuse for an army look like dumbasses.
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How many rations do we give our boys when starting an action? I cant imagine it's much more than 3 days worth.

Their logistics is crap, but that doesnt necessarily mean the plan was based on such a short time scale.
 
#18,381
#18,381
Rasputin_Vol said:
We're imprisoning journalists, running them into exile and censoring them right here in the United States... and of things continue on the path we are taking, it will get far worse.
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Who are these imprisoned journalists?
Which journalists have been forced into exile by the US government?
Which journalists have been censored by the US government?
 
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#18,384
#18,384
volgr said:
I critique America because my ancestry dates back before the founding and I have 3 kids who will inherit whatever we are leaving them. My allegiance is with America, but America seems to have hopelessly lost her way. We are America in name only as our Nation no longer conducts itself based on American ideals.
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And when I point out these things and hold America to a higher/different standard than any other nation because of of our history and founding documents, I get pushback. The truth is that many of these people on the left want to see America destroyed and replaced with a more Western European type govt, and those on the right would rather hold their heads in the sand and hold on to this delusion that we are still the paragon of freedom and justice for the world, which hasn't been the case really since 9/11.
 
#18,386
#18,386
KB5252 said:
And some more in Lviv today. Maybe he's talking aggregate though, I don't know. But if that's the case Putin may fear what may possibly come next, he's holding back in anticipation for other incursions into neighboring countries, or they just don't have the arsenal we believed they did.
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Or he is holding back on doing a leveling of the country and specifically targeting key targets.

I'm just now hearing about this Lviv attack, so I'll try to check this out.
 
#18,387
#18,387
LouderVol said:
How many rations do we give our boys when starting an action? I cant imagine it's much more than 3 days worth.

Their logistics is crap, but that doesnt necessarily mean the plan was based on such a short time scale.
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Really depends on unit and job. Tankers, mechanized infantry would carry at least a week per man (3 meals per day) plus enough pogey bait in each vehicle to carry them another week or two. Company/battalion supply trains would be trailing not far behind. Light infantry would field strip their rations to about about a meal and 1/2 per day and carry 3-4 days worth.
 
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#18,388
#18,388
volgr said:
They arent a sovereign nation, they are a Western proxy state currently being used as Russian cannon fodder.
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And instead they should be a Russian proxy state.

Which is a bigger shift from neutrality? Joining NATO that has yet to invade Russia, or being invaded by Russia yourself?

This entire situation should remove any question of why NATO is a thing and why some nations want to be part of it.
 
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#18,389
#18,389
volgr said:
You're answer, "I don't have any, but my gov't and media say it is so, so it must be so. They have never misled or lied to me in the past."
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Well, you're talking to the wrong guy about media lies. He is one of those guys that will drink it up through a firehose. What is odd to me are the number of so-called conservatives and redhats that are drinking the media propaganda. These same guys have seen the media lie over the last 5+ years during the Trump era but now have 100% in the veracity of this same media's war reporting.
 
#18,390
#18,390
Rasputin_Vol said:
You still don't get it. The United States inserted themselves in both situations to initiate the conflicts in both Syria and Ukraine. The Russians, in both instances were called in to respond. Further, the United States has done nothing but take hardliners in both incidents when it comes to bringing down tensions. And lastly, in both situations, the United States flooded the area with weapons and support and allowed the conflicts to fester on for far longer than necessary.
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There is some truth to what you are saying imo, but you are making Russia out to be righteous when they clearly are doing some evil sh*t. Annexing part of another country isn't right and killing innocent women and children is bone chillingly iniquitous. I can understand his frustration with what was happening in Ukraine, but I won't justify any of his actions.
 
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#18,392
#18,392
KB5252 said:
Wait a minute, more diplomatic? You mean just giving him what he wants.... Just say it, because that's what diplomacy with a person waging war on neighbors would mean.
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At this point, either this can be resolved the easy way or the hard way. The outcome is not likely to change. The more this drags on, the more lives are put at risk, which neither side really wants to do.
 
#18,393
#18,393
KB5252 said:
I think many in Russia are afraid to publicly and openly tell you how they feel about Putin or their government in Russia. In safe places I'd wager many, maybe half, would voice displeasure with Putin.

Again that's just my suspicion and it's impossible to know. With having said that I agree he's probably got me support than Biden but that is an extremely low bar.
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We are not too far from that situation right here in America if you haven't been paying attention the last two years.

Why don't we worry about bringing freedom and justice back here instead of throwing money, weapons and attention at a country on the other side of the globe?
 
#18,394
#18,394
Rasputin_Vol said:
And when I point out these things and hold America to a higher/different standard than any other nation because of of our history and founding documents, I get pushback. The truth is that many of these people on the left want to see America destroyed and replaced with a more Western European type govt, and those on the right would rather hold their heads in the sand and hold on to this delusion that we are still the paragon of freedom and justice for the world, which hasn't been the case really since 9/11.
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And when we point out that Putin is every bit as flawed and guilty of the same infractions and worse your stick to some odd sense of him fighting the good fight against corrupt interests. When in fact he is every bit as corrupt. Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is not your friend.

I'm not under some delusion of the US having some altruistic interest here. I do think the Ukrainian people want to be free, want to be aligned with the west. And they appear to be very willing to fight and die for it under incredible odds. I'm not willing to put US troops in the fray for a number of reasons but I support the Ukrainian people, and any help we can offer in humanitarian and shine limited military aid I'm comfortable with providing.
 
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#18,395
#18,395
Rasputin_Vol said:
Maybe we should follow that advice instead of pushing to start WWIII over Ukraine.
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We would be more likely to do that if it weren't for the fact he is committing war crimes and slaughtering innocent civilians in a sovereign nation. He's kind of got that working against him.
 
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#18,396
#18,396
KB5252 said:
Install a puppet that doesn't represent the people's wishes...... Sounds perfectly reasonable. Demilitarization is reasonable so long as Russia respects the sovereignty of it's neighbors. Unfortunately it doesn't/hasn't, so what you claim to be reasonable is a non starter.
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The US overthrew the elected by the people leader in 2014 and inserted their puppet in his place.
 
#18,397
#18,397
Rasputin_Vol said:
At this point, either this can be resolved the easy way or the hard way. The outcome is not likely to change. The more this drags on, the more lives are put at risk, which neither side really wants to do.
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Russia seems like they were very eager to put lives at risk to me........ In fact I'd say their actions prove they hold little regard for human life, both theirs and Ukrainian.
 
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#18,398
#18,398
Rasputin_Vol said:
Or he is holding back on doing a leveling of the country and specifically targeting key targets.

I'm just now hearing about this Lviv attack, so I'll try to check this out.
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If that was the case he'd be using more precision weapons and fewer dumb weapons. That take doesn't hold up to logic.
 
#18,400
#18,400
Rasputin_Vol said:
We are not too far from that situation right here in America if you haven't been paying attention the last two years.

Why don't we worry about bringing freedom and justice back here instead of throwing money, weapons and attention at a country on the other side of the globe?
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Dude, you have gone off the deep end. People here in this country feel VERY comfortable giving their opinions. Even the controversial.
 
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