War in Ukraine

[Sandman 423]

At least in the Iraq War (as faulty as it was) the US government laid out what it thought was the justification for the invasion beforehand.

Imagine if Bush had got on TV and said, "Wait until a few months after we invade. Then you'll see why we did it." How dumb would that sound?

The ole' You have to have the war before you can see why the war was needed.

 

[LouderVol]

I don't know why you're not taking the neo-nazi problem in Ukraine seriously. Yes, there are only 900 members in Azov BN; but there are literally dozens of these armed militias. There are also major political parties. I guess now they're rebranded as ultra-nationalists, but we didn't have a problem calling them out as neo-nazis before.

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat
Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
Is the US backing neo-Nazis in Ukraine?
How Many Neo-Nazis Is the U.S. Backing in Ukraine?
The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists
Ukraine's threat from within










I particularly chuckled at this section from the last article

"One of Svoboda's leading members, sports journalist Ihor Miroshnychenko, his ponytail flying behind him, then charged the podium to prevent a deputy speaking in Russian. (Svoboda believes that only Ukrainian should be used in all official bodies.)

Outside, Svoboda deputies used a chainsaw to cut down an iron fence erected last year to prevent crowds from storming the parliament building. This they justified in the name of popular democracy.
"No other democratic country has fenced-off the national parliament," said Svoboda's Ruslan Koshulinskiy, the deputy speaker of parliament. "People have chosen these lawmakers and should have a right to have access to them."

I think the defining issue is an important one for many people.

Neo Nazi implies ethnic bias. Neo nationalists implies political bias. They are blowing up pro Russian groups, which is probably fairly ethnic Russian heavy, but they arent doing it because they are ethnic Russians.

It's the forgotten issue with revolutions. You get counter revolutions even outside the government. These pro Russian groups were building support for joining Russia. These neo nationalists dont want to be part of Russia so they are counter to the pro Russians and they have used deadly violence. Is one bombed building worth avoiding the Donbas issue for the last 8 years or the current invasion?

But that doesnt inherently mean they are tied to pro-current-Ukrainian-government groups or interests. Revolutions tend to fragment and are usually done so through internal pressures rather than outside influence.

The Pro Russians want change so they push anti government beliefs. Some people hear the anti government stance and agree, but disagree on the pro Russian side. And sometimes it just groups that have always and will always exist that get empowered by a weakened central stance.

Look at early 1900s. Monarchies were mostly dead or dying due to pressure from combined nationalists, communists, anarchists, and democratics forces. WW2 was all about making sure those individual revolutions, some peaceful some not, went certain ways.

 

[Sandman 423]

Not everything in Russia is bad...can we do this here?

Sure..... Don't use it. Of coarse in an actual free country you have that choice, Dah?

 

[NEO]

Someone clicks a like button and it gives you a case of the raw ass? That's just weird.

How was post remotely raw ass?

Seems you are more upset than I am.

 

[red butler]

Another interesting take

 

[DonjoVol]

I think the defining issue is an important one for many people.

Neo Nazi implies ethnic bias. Neo nationalists implies political bias. They are blowing up pro Russian groups, which is probably fairly ethnic Russian heavy, but they arent doing it because they are ethnic Russians.

It's the forgotten issue with revolutions. You get counter revolutions even outside the government. These pro Russian groups were building support for joining Russia. These neo nationalists dont want to be part of Russia so they are counter to the pro Russians and they have used deadly violence. Is one bombed building worth avoiding the Donbas issue for the last 8 years or the current invasion?

But that doesnt inherently mean they are tied to pro-current-Ukrainian-government groups or interests. Revolutions tend to fragment and are usually done so through internal pressures rather than outside influence.

The Pro Russians want change so they push anti government beliefs. Some people hear the anti government stance and agree, but disagree on the pro Russian side. And sometimes it just groups that have always and will always exist that get empowered by a weakened central stance.

Look at early 1900s. Monarchies were mostly dead or dying due to pressure from combined nationalists, communists, anarchists, and democratics forces. WW2 was all about making sure those individual revolutions, some peaceful some not, went certain ways.

The ultranationalists of Ukraine are followers of Stepan Bandera. Ultranationalist beliefs can lead to racism among their followers. Bandera had a very strong disliking especially for Poles and Russians. Right now their focus has been more on the Russians currently in Ukraine. Especially in the Donbass region.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Agreed, but Ukraine will be one of those cases where you have to wipe out an entire population or those left will make the occupation miserable - peace by genocide. Russia doesn't seem to be able to eliminate the entire Ukrainian population by conventional means, Russian "winning" would just mean occupying a ruined country as hostile as say Afghanistan or Vietnam. Nobody is or will be a winner in this mess. It pretty well exposes the UN and the rest of the world as people who will sit and watch a bully beat up on a smaller guy - that's not winning either.

But pretty much standard. All the way back to the League of Nations letting Mussolini get away with the invasion of Abyssinia (sp?) which was a factor in ebolding the axis powers to launch WWII. International bodies are too weak to really do anything about aggression. The only solution to that problem is to give international bodies more power which creates its own problems and probably leads directly to one work government and the book of Revelations

 

[85SugarVol]

They are destroying their own ultimate objectives.

What if their goal is to fracture the global community into two?

 

[KB5252]

Where did I say anything about Biden. I said the free world was glad to be rid of Trump.

And you cut it off there as if everything was fine after.

 

[85SugarVol]

When you read 1930s German history, you think to yourself how could Hitler have found such useful cowardly idiots. Certainly couldn’t happen in modern society. Then you stop and read this forum.

Which thread?

 

[KB5252]

The ole' You have to have the war before you can see why the war was needed.

Pelosi doesn't see a problem here.

 

[AM64]

But pretty much standard. All the way back to the League of Nations letting Mussolini get away with the invasion of Abyssinia (sp?) which was a factor in ebolding the axis powers to launch WWII. International bodies are too weak to really do anything about aggression. The only solution to that problem is to give international bodies more power which creates its own problems and probably leads directly to one work government and the book of Revelations

I'm far from knowing exactly how the UN works; but as long as China and Russia are two of five permanent members of the Security Council and hold veto power, there's little chance that the UN can be effective in keeping world peace. Not much chance that one of the two world trouble makers is going to allow UN actions that one or the other of them starts, and you never know on which side of the bed France will wake up on any given day.

 

[Hunerwadel]

How was post remotely raw ass?

Seems you are more upset than I am.

Excuse me, I'll go back and read it again.....uhu...umm...mkay. Yep it's a touch of raw ass.

 

[luthervol]

Once the real story comes out regarding the depth of Ukraine corruption and criminality, will history view Russians as liberators?

Not a freakin' chance.
Ukrainians have made it abundantly clear where their loyalties and wishes lie.

 

[Gandalf]

A sophomoric - and perhaps dishonest - child leads with insults without following the dialogue and grasping context, if able.



Does that sound as if I don't understand Putin's alleged concerns? Well, no; I plainly counter that his concerns are not practical to the point of sophomoric, childish and dishonest absurdity. I repeat; Russia has no security concerns regarding Ukraine. Do you understand the context now?

The post you quoted; you omitted a telling quote from Putin re: invasion without Security Council sanction to be a violation of international law. That should have given you pause.

I've also laid out that Putin does not recognize Ukraine as anything other than Russian, an artificial forced construct, and has stated dissolution of the USSR was the greatest catastrophe of the century. And how he has used that, along with his statement bemoaning Russian citizens disconnected across the former satellite states as a great tragedy and that Russia will protect them wherever they are, to prop up separatist groups within those states and do exactly what you state he fears; destabilizing those countries. In Ukraine, he's fighting 'Nazis'. You may think he believes that, and you'd be a useful tool.

If not following the conversation to date, you may at least inquire before piping off with insult next time. Or not; either way suits me.

A child also adopts insults where they are not intended. If it came across that it was directed at you in particular, then my sincere apologies, in my haste to post it from a phone may have made it read so.

The argument here, however, that states Russia has no legitimate security reasons to worry about Ukraine simply because they arent going to be directly attacked by them is indeed a rubric of the simple-minded.

Were Mexico to request to join a China-lead military alliance that would enable China to put "defensive" capabilities right on our borders, you don't think your precious government here would respond with significant action? or if it were found that China's military had actively been equipping and training Mexican drug cartels to destabilize our Southern border? Do you think the US military does not now "invade" near at will in Mexico when we see armed para-military drug gangs? That doesn't mean we would have to pull a full-scale invasion of Mexico but if they agreed to play host to Chinese missiles, perhaps we might. Certainly, we would have a "security concern" there. Well, I have difficulty seeing how that is much different than what has been happening in Ukraine. Just because I support one side over the other, doesn't mean I cannot recognize it for what it is.

And no, an edict from SC sanction means nothing at all. I am sure Russia thinks no more of a UN edict than we do. Do you think China asks for SC permission when it removes HK governance at will? or when we bomb Syria or myriad other actions? No, because the whole point of sitting on the SC roughly means that you are powerful enough to be above asking anyone for a "by your leave Sir". Like Keiretsu and Chaebol, these institutions are made by the strong to guide the weak, keeping relative harmony, to the benefit of mostly all but especially those who lead the organization.

 

[OHvol40]

What if their goal is to fracture the global community into two?

May be true, but I don’t want to be on their side of the community, that’s sounds awful (and rapidly getting worse).

 

[NCFisher]

The ultranationalists of Ukraine are followers of Stepan Bandera. Ultranationalist beliefs can lead to racism among their followers. Bandera had a very strong disliking especially for Poles and Russians. Right now their focus has been more on the Russians currently in Ukraine. Especially in the Donbass region.

They have a reason to dislike Poles and Russians, such as trying to stamp their ethnicity and culture out of them.
Ultranationalist beliefs can lead to a lot of things, desirable or not.
Like repelling Russia attempting to tear away the Donbas, which is why the UAF and nationalists have been focused on them.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

 

[LouderVol]

What Russian stooge media is promoting this garbage, and why are so many people buying into it????

It is really shocking that this gets any legs at all.

Well it's the typical attitude of the winners arent War Criminals, only the loser is. As the victor they will be able to enforce whatever "justice" fits their agenda.

 

[85SugarVol]

May be true, but I don’t want to be on their side of the community, that’s sounds awful (and rapidly getting worse).

Agreed

 

[tvolsfan]

How else are we supposed to put pressure on the Russian government?

Not to mention hamper their war machine.

 

[luthervol]

What if their goal is to fracture the global community into two?

If they are not looking for anything close to two equal halves, then I guess that could be a goal they are achieving.
But their part will be much smaller and volatile now than it was prior.
And I can't imagine that was a goal.

 

[Hunerwadel]

"There are reports that NATO believes". Sounds like FOX or MSNBC style of reporting.

 

[AM64]

"There are reports that NATO believes". Sounds like FOX or MSNBC style of reporting.

Makes you wonder how prevalent Mr Anonymous was in those "reports", too.

 

[allvol123]

Which thread?

This one.