War in Ukraine

#19,452
#19,452
“war crimes” that’s the phrase. So who actually going to go get Putin for “war crimes” when this is over???? I would guess 80% of the posters in this thread wouldn’t cross the border. “War Crimes” JOKE
 
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#19,453
#19,453
TVOLS said:
“war crimes” that’s the phrase. So who actually going to go get Putin for “war crimes” when this is over???? I would guess 80% of the posters in this thread wouldn’t cross the border. “War Crimes” JOKE
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What would people willing or unwilling to go to Russia, have to do with whether there have been war crimes ?
 
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#19,455
#19,455
Rasputin_Vol said:
The leadership in the United States and The West showed their incompetence by them having to scramble to get oil from Venezuela, the Iranians and the Saudis. The same for the UK when they had to go begging the UAE and Saudi Arabia late last week. You don't make these sorts of economic moves and then discuss this with back up sources of energy after the fact. This was an emotional and erratic series of bumbles by The West. They did not have a back up plan or even a Plan A it appears.
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I'm shocked that you'd find another sideroad to complain about the west's actions in this thread without having to acknowledge what a douchebag Putin is.

shocked.
 
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#19,464
#19,464
This guy, Kipling, had it right with Macdonough's Song It's what humans do.

.
kipling.jpg
 
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#19,465
#19,465
NCFisher said:
I waited for @Rasputin_Vol @volgr @red butler @DonjoVol et al to oblige you but...

What Russophiles are terming Nazis are nationalist (or ultranationalist, as if the base term needs a modifier). The OUN formed in 1929 and split into two cooperative factions of OUN-A and OUN-B, but both focused on an independent nation free from Russian, Polish, Romanian, Lithuanian rule, all of which had attempted to erase Ukraine culture and integrate them into their own including forced resettlement outside Ukraine to disperse them; Ukrainians suffered under them all. The Russian inflicted Holomodor occurred in 1932-1933.

Germany invaded Ukraine in June 1941 and was viewed as a liberating force, and opportunity to rid the territory of Poles, Russians, Romanians, Lithuanians. And Jews, I think to be compliant with Nazi command; I've not found evidence of anti-Jew virulence prior but it wouldn't surprise me as Israel was the answer to anti-Jew sentiment across the whole of Europe. Ukraine had a very large population of Jews. The liberator assumption didn't last long. Stepan Bandera (OUN-B), favorite boogeyman of VN Russophiles and those everywhere, declared Ukraine independent upon Germany's invasion and was promptly arrested in July and transferred to a concentration in September 1941 where he remained until September 1944. Other nationalist leaders such as Melynk (OUN-A) were also imprisoned. Further, between June and August 1941, Germany returned W. Ukraine to Polish administration and former Lithuanian areas to them. The rest fell under Nazi command as Reichskommissariat Ukraine.

With the demise of the USSR, Ukraine became independent. Pro-Russ president Yanukovych was ousted in 2014 in the Maidan protests and 'Revolution of Dignity'. Putin's response was to seed and support separatists in the Donbas region to destabilize and annex the region. Russian forces have been a mixture of resident Russ Ukrainians, mercs, and Russian military.

The UAF have been heavily deployed to the region since. Volunteer nationalist militias, he favorite boogeymen of Russophiles being Azov Battalion, have been part of that fighting force. Azov was created by wealthy Ukrainian interests in 2014 and incorporated into the National Guard that year. A spokesman has stated 15-20% of the battalion have neo-Nazi influence and are predominantly young, impressionable soldiers. Insignia is a mixture of symbolism approximating Nazi symbols, but Slavic and regional cultures and well as nationalist symbols. There is no antisemitic aspect to the battalion, which has support, enlisted, leadership and founding in/from the Jewish community. Putin defenders seem to have forgotten that as a defining mark of Nazism; "but Romas, etc..." - yeah, but above all the Reich pursued the complete erasure of Jews not just from Germany, but the earth.

So the answer is a firm 'No'; what Putin (and Western shills) are fighting against are Ukrainian nationalists who haven't forgotten their suffering under Russia. VN Russophiles, whether of ignorance of malice, toss the term around to shut down examination of the Russian thug's actions and motivations, even as he states he must deNazify the Jewish Ukraine government and Ukrainian culture.

It's farcical that Russia has a moral perch from which to shout "Nazi!" at anyone, Ukraine in particular.
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Respect and appreciation for taking the time explaining that so thoroughly. I learned a lot.

Well done.
 
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#19,466
#19,466
Gandalf said:
Not unless Russians are writing it.

Let's not get silly here. Both Russia and Ukraine are deeply corrupt with large criminal enterprises.
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You have to wonder if it's just a natural state of affairs in that part of the world, or if Ukraine was bent that way from being managed by the Russian owned and operated Soviet Union. Many countries have overthrown colonizers and not gotten it right - at least the first time or so. Sometimes it actually worse after colonization than before. A lot of Africa is still a zoo, and parts of SE Asia aren't anything you'd want to set standards by. Really parts of Central and South America are hardly shining examples of behavior; I've always felt Spain left them with a real penchant for corruption ... almost part of the DNA in that part of the world.
 
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#19,468
#19,468
What Putin did... NOT Russians, what PUTIN did, was install himself, with a vision of a more "powerful" Russia. He is very much old Russia. He wants old Russia back. So he eliminated free elections. Subjegated his own people. Fed them lies. Then walked into another freely elected country and took it as his own using fales narratives, pretexts, and confusion. He got away with it so he planned to taking the rest of the country. To do it he needed the USA out of NATO, and indeed NATO out of the way all together. His plan was really very ambitious and bold. He backed Trump and his fam with laundered funds. The Kushners invested heavily into social media outlets like facebook, twitter, and Spotify. He installed agents and influencers to cause chaos and disruption from within (using extremists organizations). All for the purpose of installing a puppet regime in America. One of his calling cards. Installing puppet regimes, chaos, fear, terrorism. Why in the actual **** does Putin still have a twitter? and why in the actual **** are you still defending human war crimes? Do you not know right from wrong any more?
 
#19,470
#19,470
AM64 said:
You have to wonder if it's just a natural state of affairs in that part of the world, or if Ukraine was bent that way from being managed by the Russian owned and operated Soviet Union. Many countries have overthrown colonizers and not gotten it right - at least the first time or so. Sometimes it actually worse after colonization than before. A lot of Africa is still a zoo, and parts of SE Asia aren't anything you'd want to set standards by. Really parts of Central and South America are hardly shining examples of behavior; I've always felt Spain left them with a real penchant for corruption ... almost part of the DNA in that part of the world.
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I think there is something to that but its probably also exacerbated by the fact that Ukraine has been a prize for the EU for some time and to bring it "under" both culturally and politically as it has other former Soviet satellites like the Baltic states. Many players have enjoyed the grey zone of transacting there, a sort of "port" of Charon between the highly regulated world of the EU and the more unstructured Asia. This is even more so after the Baltics entered the EU and began cleaning their act.
 
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#19,471
#19,471
AM64 said:
Nice. We maliciously and criminally cut off McDonalds in Russia, and Putin cuts off heat in Ukraine. Can't wait to hear how Ras and his couple of disciples justify this one.
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I mean, if it had been Chick-fil-a, I could see the need for such a drastic reprisal (maybe water too!) But cutting off McDonalds? Russia should probably send a thank you letter for sparing the public health.
 
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#19,472
#19,472
Just so everyone knows at this point of the "conversation"? The Budapest Memorandum with Russia act happened in 1994. Ukraine held almost all of Russia's nukes at that time, and gave them to Russia in exchange for "never being attacked".
 
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