What's best for the future of UT football: Dooley teams win or... (merged)

[NashVol11]

Don't argue with "thus saith VKAman". Dooley will fail. The omniscient one hath declared it... Amen and Amen.

You forgot this...:worship:

 

[BigPapaVol]

interesting

UT had tougher admission standards than your alma mater

Was a joke. But grad school otoh...
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[BigPapaVol]

Really? So you think it made more sense for Kiffin who coached in the NFL and couldn't make it, but not for CDD who, without the resources that he now has (better coaches, better facility, name brand product to sell recruits, ) was in the process of turning a hard-sell program around. Sorry, your reasoning is flawed. Give CDD the same time you generously offered Kiffin and he may just surprise some of you.

No. The jury is out argument worked for Kiffin because he hadn't been a head guy at the collegiate level, competing with his competitors for recruits and matching wits with them over the season. Dooley has. It's just a different deal here.
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[NashVol11]

I totally agree. He is just as likely to fail as he is to succeed.

I just wouldn't write him off in his 1st month, i wanna see what he can do first.

Thing is, though, I said better or worse than 17-20. Even something like 20-17 or 21-15 would be "failing" here. The likelihood of him succeeding by Tennessee standards is below 50%.

 

[sjt18]

To say that there is some doubt about whether CDD can ever win a championship at UT is a gross understatement.

I feel about as confident as I did after Kiffin's first class. I feel more confident than I did when great coaches started looking to bail out on Kiffin.

I'm not sure who if anyone can win championships at UT vs the current cast of rival coaches. I do know that Lane Kiffin didn't. I know that Fulmer didn't in his last 9 years or so.

What will Dooley do? That... I don't know.

Instead, many here and in other UT circles, feel the best he can do is win may 10 games in his third year at UT, but never any more than that.

Ummm.... SO? "Many" "feel"? Well, I "think" no one including those many in their various circles have enough information to make a qualified prediction.

In the meantime, many concede that he will help recruiting,

If he avg's a top 10 class then that greatly enhances his chances of winning championships. If he is able to surround himself with a great staff AND avg a top 10 class... it almost assures it.

but that he can not recruit as well as CLK and company.

The question is now pertinent (if we weren't just blind before)... How good would Kiffin and Company actually be if they were ethical and played by the rules? Assuming they would only break the rules and behave unethically if they had to... how long would it have been before UT landed in hot water? Would that have occurred before (instead of) or after a championship?

So, even his recruiting upside is limited versus the trajectory we were on.

Wow! Based on what? Holding together the Rivals #9 class after taking the job less than 3 weeks before NSD while being undermined by the old staff in almost every way imaginable?

Yet, is winning and restoring 'mediocrity' at UT over the next 6 or 7 years better for the Vols program, or would simply seeing Dooley repeat his LA Tech record at UT over the next two years get a proven coach on the Hill faster?

Mediocrity is not acceptable. Dooley will either succeed or fail but it won't be because you and a bunch of "circles" "feel" it... and it won't be because VKAman declares it.

What would be better? It would be better for folks like you to stop constructing these straw man arguments. You presume failure/mediocrity then ask questions as if those things are foregone conclusions.

When he was hired, someone posted that Bama fans weren't happy about the hire. I didn't believe it. Then DD went out and took a recruit from LSU... then he took a Bama lock... then he took the best player in GA from UGA.

I'm not a believer yet by any stretch but he's done well in his short time so I'm not at all ready to write him off.

 

[NashVol11]

I feel about as confident as I did after Kiffin's first class. I feel more confident than I did when great coaches started looking to bail out on Kiffin.

I'm not sure who if anyone can win championships at UT vs the current cast of rival coaches. I do know that Lane Kiffin didn't. I know that Fulmer didn't in his last 9 years or so.

What will Dooley do? That... I don't know.

Ummm.... SO? "Many" "feel"? Well, I "think" no one including those many in their various circles have enough information to make a qualified prediction.

If he avg's a top 10 class then that greatly enhances his chances of winning championships. If he is able to surround himself with a great staff AND avg a top 10 class... it almost assures it. The question is now pertinent (if we weren't just blind before)... How good would Kiffin and Company actually be if they were ethical and played by the rules? Assuming they would only break the rules and behave unethically if they had to... how long would it have been before UT landed in hot water? Would that have occurred before (instead of) or after a championship? Wow! Based on what? Holding together the Rivals #9 class after taking the job less than 3 weeks before NSD while being undermined by the old staff in almost every way imaginable?



Mediocrity is not acceptable. Dooley will either succeed or fail but it won't be because you and a bunch of "circles" "feel" it... and it won't be because VKAman declares it.

What would be better? It would be better for folks like you to stop constructing these straw man arguments. You presume failure/mediocrity then ask questions as if those things are foregone conclusions.

When he was hired, someone posted that Bama fans weren't happy about the hire. I didn't believe it. Then DD went out and took a recruit from LSU... then he took a Bama lock... then he took the best player in GA from UGA.

I'm not a believer yet by any stretch but he's done well in his short time so I'm not at all ready to write him off.

Did you seriously just cite Bama message boards as a reason for optimism? I would think that in your novels you could do better than that...

 

[sjt18]

No. The jury is out argument worked for Kiffin because he hadn't been a head guy at the collegiate level, competing with his competitors for recruits and matching wits with them over the season. Dooley has. It's just a different deal here.
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Not really. Kiffin still hasn't proven he can be an effective HC at any level. He's had one winning season... 7-6.

Dooley hasn't proven himself a success either... nor a failure. La Tech is an "incomplete". Most of the people with direct interest or knowledge about that program said he was moving them in the right direction.

The jury is out but I don't think we'll have to wait 3 or 4 years to know how it will go.

We need to see a team that's disciplined, well coached, and plays hard this fall like we did last fall. Then we need to see a top 10-15 recruiting class loaded with quality OL's and DT's.

I'll admit there's a couple of things he's said so far that made me uncomfortable. One was something to do with give kids "chances". Another was concerning his picks for coaches and how he wouldn't necessarily look at lines on a resume. Another was a statement he made that gave me the feeling his will to win was lacking... maybe just me but that's how I felt. (Purely subjective admittedly). He also said something about Fulmer doing it the right way... If he thinks the "right way" is what CPF did the last few years then he definitely doesn't have a strong enough will to win.

He's done and said some good things. He's done and said things that raise flags... that's why I'll just give it more time and see what he does before drawing conclusions.

 

[NashVol11]

I feel about as confident as I did after Kiffin's first class. I feel more confident than I did when great coaches started looking to bail out on Kiffin.

"Bail out" for promotions and raises? That's news to me...but hey, it's not like they were replaced with better, former NFL coaches or anything.

I'm not sure who if anyone can win championships at UT vs the current cast of rival coaches. I do know that Lane Kiffin didn't. I know that Fulmer didn't in his last 9 years or so.

It's funny how you say this like it means something...

If he avg's a top 10 class then that greatly enhances his chances of winning championships. If he is able to surround himself with a great staff AND avg a top 10 class... it almost assures it.

Not necessarily in the SEC...

The question is now pertinent (if we weren't just blind before)... How good would Kiffin and Company actually be if they were ethical and played by the rules? Assuming they would only break the rules and behave unethically if they had to... how long would it have been before UT landed in hot water? Would that have occurred before (instead of) or after a championship?

Rest assured that secondary violations would not keep us out of the national championship game...

Wow! Based on what? Holding together the Rivals #9 class after taking the job less than 3 weeks before NSD while being undermined by the old staff in almost every way imaginable?

Based on pretty much every observer that said it was the most relentless staff they had ever seen...

 

[sjt18]

Did you seriously just cite Bama message boards as a reason for optimism?

No. I cited them because that's apparently how they felt and because they have some knowledge of the guy that most UT fans don't.

I would think that in your novels you could do better than that...

Some people spit out declarations as if they are some kind of internet oracle... some of us reason things out.

The more complex a subject is or the more flawed someone's conclusions appear to be... the more words it takes to answer.

 

[volintears]

Question is,,will CDD be a Ron Zook type hire.Sure he could recruit,and it appears CDD and staff may just be good recruiters.Then again RZ didn't do much with the talent he got.Will CDD and staff be able to coach up the talent,put together good game plans,and take TN back to where the expectations of the fans are?That question is yet to be answered.

 

[vol_in_ar]

Not really. Kiffin still hasn't proven he can be an effective HC at any level. He's had one winning season... 7-6.

Dooley hasn't proven himself a success either... nor a failure. La Tech is an "incomplete". Most of the people with direct interest or knowledge about that program said he was moving them in the right direction.

The jury is out but I don't think we'll have to wait 3 or 4 years to know how it will go.

We need to see a team that's disciplined, well coached, and plays hard this fall like we did last fall. Then we need to see a top 10-15 recruiting class loaded with quality OL's and DT's.

I'll admit there's a couple of things he's said so far that made me uncomfortable. One was something to do with give kids "chances". Another was concerning his picks for coaches and how he wouldn't necessarily look at lines on a resume. Another was a statement he made that gave me the feeling his will to win was lacking... maybe just me but that's how I felt. (Purely subjective admittedly). He also said something about Fulmer doing it the right way... If he thinks the "right way" is what CPF did the last few years then he definitely doesn't have a strong enough will to win.

He's done and said some good things. He's done and said things that raise flags... that's why I'll just give it more time and see what he does before drawing conclusions.

I wouldn't say three years at a school is incomplete

 

[ReeceBobby]

Not really. Kiffin still hasn't proven he can be an effective HC at any level. He's had one winning season... 7-6.

Dooley hasn't proven himself a success either... nor a failure. La Tech is an "incomplete". Most of the people with direct interest or knowledge about that program said he was moving them in the right direction.

The jury is out but I don't think we'll have to wait 3 or 4 years to know how it will go.

We need to see a team that's disciplined, well coached, and plays hard this fall like we did last fall. Then we need to see a top 10-15 recruiting class loaded with quality OL's and DT's.

I'll admit there's a couple of things he's said so far that made me uncomfortable. One was something to do with give kids "chances". Another was concerning his picks for coaches and how he wouldn't necessarily look at lines on a resume. Another was a statement he made that gave me the feeling his will to win was lacking... maybe just me but that's how I felt. (Purely subjective admittedly). He also said something about Fulmer doing it the right way... If he thinks the "right way" is what CPF did the last few years then he definitely doesn't have a strong enough will to win.

He's done and said some good things. He's done and said things that raise flags... that's why I'll just give it more time and see what he does before drawing conclusions.

I think your angst might be assuaged by the zero tolerance policy Hamilton instituted over guns/drugs. That's what makes the school look bad, not a kid skipping class. Hell, I skipped more classes at UT than I attended.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I wouldn't say three years at a school is incomplete

Or anything remotely akin to it. The guy has a track record. It doesn't warrant the HC job at a program like UT. A bad situation resulted in a default hire, much like USC did. The difference is that USC got a proven staff.
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[DD4ME]

With every passing year that UT hits the 5-7 win mark we fall another year behind, if Dooley wins at that rate for the next 3 years and is fired for it, UT will have a huge hole to climb out of...I'd rather us not be sorry for the next 10 years, so lets hope that Dooley and crew get this thing rolling in the right direction.

+1 In losing fast like the poster asks we would only wreck our name as a stable place to develop talent for the future. The recruits that helped them win NC didn't show up at UF and UA solely because of a coach. They showed up at first because of the strength of the institution. Now they roll waist deep in 5 stars because of their combination of the 2. DD may not be the NC guy but he dang sure better level the ground for it to be paved with gold.
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[vol_in_ar]

Or anything remotely akin to it. The guy has a track record. It doesn't warrant the HC job at a program like UT. A bad situation resulted in a default hire, much like USC did. The difference is that USC got a proven staff.
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qft

 

[timmy]

So I guess you think that LA Tech and Tennessee are the same then? That was the comparison that was made to disprove a point made by another poster. No one said they thought it was the truth.

Maybe you need to learn to read. When did I say La Tech and Tennessee were the same?

Someone said he should do better here because he would have more resources. Well guess what, so does all of the other SEC teams, just like all of the WAC teams have comparable resources.

 

[sjt18]

"Bail out" for promotions and raises? That's news to me...but hey, it's not like they were replaced with better, former NFL coaches or anything.

Gran never publicly stated why he left... but he basically left for around the same money and the same position.

Now we have a supposed first hand "source" on another site saying that one of the two holdovers told him that he and others would have left had Kiffin stayed.

Rest assured that secondary violations would not keep us out of the national championship game...

If it occurred, hooking Henderson's dad up with Snoop Dog isn't just a secondary violation if they go ahead and sign Henderson.

IF one of the hostesses ever came forward and said they were encouraged to sleep with a recruit... Well, you could just ask Danny Ford about that. Kind of one of those karma-like things, huh? Monte while HC at NCSU was the one who turned Danny Ford and Clemson in.

Based on pretty much every observer that said it was the most relentless staff they had ever seen...

HUH? Yes. I have little doubt that O and Kiffin spent as much time as they could relentlessly {not} recruiting UT commits... LOL@U.

I never said the last staff lacked energy, determination, or coaching talent. Quite the contrary... they had all of those things in abundance.

What they lacked was ethics, loyalty, respect, and basic morality. For a "season", they're likely to succeed. But those flaws will eventually catch up to them as surely as an inability to evaluate talent might.

 

[sjt18]

I wouldn't say three years at a school is incomplete

I'd afford Kiffin the same courtesy. Just because he's noisier doesn't mean he's proven more.

He failed at Oakland... not altogether his fault and he might have done well given a chance... so "incomplete".

He definitely recorded an "incomplete" at UT. A top 10 recruiting class which was already on its way to being top 10 when he took over plus a 7-6 season... doesn't prove anything.

I think he made some good moves, did some good things, and had some things headed in the right direction. However he isn't ethical and it would have been a race to see whether UT won a championship before it got penalized by the NCAA.

 

[jsc1973]

His record after 3 years at UNC was whopping 9-24-1 (1-10, 1-10, 6-4-1) . If we had hired Mack Brown at that stage of his career, you would be crying foul with him as well.

No, you wouldn't be. You don't know the half of that story.

When Mack Brown took over at UNC, he was five years removed from having been head coach at Appalachian State.

When he arrived in Chapel Hill, one of the first things he did was evaluate the talent on the Tar Heels' roster. There was a running back on scholarship who was a fifth-year senior, and he had played a lot in 1987.

During the 1983-84 recruiting season, before Brown resigned at Appalachian to move to Oklahoma as offensive coordinator, he had evaluated this player and deemed him not good enough to be offered a scholarship to Appalachian.

Get the picture? Mack Brown didn't have a chance those first two seasons at UNC. In 1988, he was playing with talent that was less than good 1-AA level, and in 1989, he was playing what was left of that, plus the true freshmen he had recruited. No one was crying foul, either. When the Tar Heels won six games (and tied the national champs) in 1990, Mack Brown was a hero.

Tennessee has never been as bad as UNC was in 1988, not even close. It was considered a miracle that Brown actually won a game and kept a few others close. But when we have "fans" who suggest we should want UT to lose because they don't like the new coach and want him fired so we can get a bigger name, it makes me think maybe we deserve a year or two like that. We have fans who call Fulmer's last 10 years mediocre, and he was 85-41, with four 10-win seasons.

Maybe he should have done better than that. I think he probably should have. But Tennessee doesn't know the meaning of mediocre, and anyone making an analogy to Mack Brown's first seasons at UNC (which I was here to witness live) just makes that more obvious.

 

[sjt18]

Or anything remotely akin to it. The guy has a track record. It doesn't warrant the HC job at a program like UT. A bad situation resulted in a default hire, much like USC did. The difference is that USC got a proven staff.
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Pretty much agree with this.

I don't think Dooley was a default hire though. That would have been Cut or Kippy. Dooley was a "swing for the fence on an unknown possible up and comer so maybe I can save my career" hire. Hamilton has to be on thin ice after hiring and losing Kiffin. If we were all holding our noses because of some of the things the guy was doing... what were the big donors doing? He embarrassed them while at UT then even worse with the way he left.

UT's head coaching opportunity when Kiffin left was very, very, very high risk. That's why none of the name coaches would touch it. They know that UT's roster is depleted. They know it is a difficult place to recruit to against the current SEC. They know the competition is great, expectations high, and the tolerance for failure low. Most of all, they knew their tenure in the job would probably depend on the decisions of 17-18 year old kids and what they could do in less than 3 weeks before NSD.

The USC job has the NCAA risk to deal with... and Kiffin still wouldn't have gotten the job according to most informed opinions I've seen if he wasn't bringing Monte with him.

 

[NashVol11]

No. I cited them because that's apparently how they felt and because they have some knowledge of the guy that most UT fans don't.

Some people spit out declarations as if they are some kind of internet oracle... some of us reason things out.

The more complex a subject is or the more flawed someone's conclusions appear to be... the more words it takes to answer.

Because he coached under their coach?

 

[sjt18]

Because he coached under their coach?

And against them. If I'm not mistaken, Saban holds Dooley in pretty high regard... which for a Bama fan would be like words from the very mouth of a god.

 

[NashVol11]

Gran never publicly stated why he left... but he basically left for around the same money and the same position.

He nearly doubled his salary and became an associate head coach, so no. Oh, and remind me where his recruiting specialty is again?

If it occurred, hooking Henderson's dad up with Snoop Dog isn't just a secondary violation if they go ahead and sign Henderson.

IF one of the hostesses ever came forward and said they were encouraged to sleep with a recruit... Well, you could just ask Danny Ford about that. Kind of one of those karma-like things, huh? Monte while HC at NCSU was the one who turned Danny Ford and Clemson in.

Whole bunch of ifs here...I'll give you another one: IF the hostesses were going to come forward with damaging information about Kiffin, wouldn't they do it right now?

HUH? Yes. I have little doubt that O and Kiffin spent as much time as they could relentlessly {not} recruiting UT commits... LOL@U.

I never said the last staff lacked energy, determination, or coaching talent. Quite the contrary... they had all of those things in abundance.

What they lacked was ethics, loyalty, respect, and basic morality. For a "season", they're likely to succeed. But those flaws will eventually catch up to them as surely as an inability to evaluate talent might.

You think Nick Saban has loyalty? And Orgeron has been around since the late 80s...remind me how his recruiting has "caught up to him" so far (other than giving him a reputation that helps him recruit even better...)

 

[ReeceBobby]

Pretty much agree with this.

I don't think Dooley was a default hire though. That would have been Cut or Kippy. Dooley was a "swing for the fence on an unknown possible up and comer so maybe I can save my career" hire. Hamilton has to be on thin ice after hiring and losing Kiffin. If we were all holding our noses because of some of the things the guy was doing... what were the big donors doing? He embarrassed them while at UT then even worse with the way he left.

UT's head coaching opportunity when Kiffin left was very, very, very high risk. That's why none of the name coaches would touch it. They know that UT's roster is depleted. They know it is a difficult place to recruit to against the current SEC. They know the competition is great, expectations high, and the tolerance for failure low. Most of all, they knew their tenure in the job would probably depend on the decisions of 17-18 year old kids and what they could do in less than 3 weeks before NSD.

The USC job has the NCAA risk to deal with... and Kiffin still wouldn't have gotten the job according to most informed opinions I've seen if he wasn't bringing Monte with him.

I don't know if he would've gotten the UT job if Monte wasn't on board...

 

[utmba93]

I feel about as confident as I did after Kiffin's first class. I feel more confident than I did when great coaches started looking to bail out on Kiffin..

Dooley has yet to recruit a class. CLK class would likely have been top 5. The trajectory stands lower now than it was when CLK left. If Dooley can recruit a top 5 class next season, that gets us back on the CLK track.

I'm not sure who if anyone can win championships at UT vs the current cast of rival coaches. I do know that Lane Kiffin didn't. I know that Fulmer didn't in his last 9 years or so.

What will Dooley do? That... I don't know.

Nor do I know. But the strength of the competition is a reason to hire a proven coach and not a reason to forgive the failures of the one that was hired.

Ummm.... SO? "Many" "feel"? Well, I "think" no one including those many in their various circles have enough information to make a qualified prediction.

You just predicted that you didn't know if anyone could win against the current competition. How did you do that without more information? We do have information on how Dooley did against the cast comprising the WAC. That appears to be useful information.

If he avg's a top 10 class then that greatly enhances his chances of winning championships. If he is able to surround himself with a great staff AND avg a top 10 class... it almost assures it.

A 10th ranked class is about 5th in the SEC. I thought he was a good recruiter and thus would have better players than his competition in the WAC. Yet with better players, a 4-8 record would indicate that he was outcoached in some fashion. Again worse relative talent versus more superior coaching cast to compete against, and that would appear to be some evidence.

He's got to recruit top 5 to compete in the SEC for championships. It's not optional unless he's going to outcoach the SEC competing coaches.

The question is now pertinent (if we weren't just blind before)... How good would Kiffin and Company actually be if they were ethical and played by the rules? Assuming they would only break the rules and behave unethically if they had to... how long would it have been before UT landed in hot water? Would that have occurred before (instead of) or after a championship? Wow! Based on what? Holding together the Rivals #9 class after taking the job less than 3 weeks before NSD while being undermined by the old staff in almost every way imaginable?

I've given credit to Dooley and the staff that CLK left behind (particularly Thompson and Chaney) for keeping the class together.

I don't know what would have happened on AA investigations. That takes a lot more rank speculation to predict than it does to predict Dooley's potential for success in the SEC.

Mediocrity is not acceptable. Dooley will either succeed or fail but it won't be because you and a bunch of "circles" "feel" it... and it won't be because VKAman declares it.

And, no matter how hard you argue that he deserves more time based on his excellent track record entering the job, you too will be considering his replacement when it happens. Anyone taking the HFC job should recognize that.

What would be better? It would be better for folks like you to stop constructing these straw man arguments. You presume failure/mediocrity then ask questions as if those things are foregone conclusions.

There's nothing straw man about predicting Dooley's upside as being two times as many SEC wins in three years at UT as he had WAC wins in three years at LA Tech. Mediocrity is a generous prediction.

When he was hired, someone posted that Bama fans weren't happy about the hire. I didn't believe it. Then DD went out and took a recruit from LSU... then he took a Bama lock... then he took the best player in GA from UGA.

Who cares what Bama fans want or think about the UT coach? Saban recommended the guy too. Somehow that's supposed to be reassuring. Would Saban recommend a guy he thought he could not beat?

I'm not a believer yet by any stretch but he's done well in his short time so I'm not at all ready to write him off.

I haven't written him off. I've simply outlined two of three potentials outcomes and questioned how we might react.

For the third possible type of outcomes (he wins championships), I'm sure we'll all be quite happy. Some of us will clearly be more surprised than others.


The thread is really more about trying to gauge expectations and how UT should respond to them based on what information we have now... and it's not a 'null' set upon which we might consider outcomes.

So, here's my 'odds on the Dooley' era outcomes...

A) 30% chance he's .500 or worse after two seasons and is fired for cause

B) 60% chance he's better than .500 but worse than .700 after two seasons, and continues on a pace of about .700 for a 5 to 8 year tenure at UT and is fired.

C) 10% chance that he wins a championship during the 8 year tenure above (between his 5th and 8th season) and becomes the love of my life like he already is for so many here.

What are your 'odds on Dooley'?