What's best for the future of UT football: Dooley teams win or... (merged)

#551
#551
The Dooley argument won't be close to being won for at least 3 or 4 more years. What you folks need to realize is the talent at UT is at its lowest point in 25 years. Forget the latest signing class. They will most likely have a minimal impact in 2010. Less than 50 scholarship athletes return. 22 scholarship athletes left the program for a variety of reasons over the past 1 year +. UT has in effect been in the same situation as having received severe probation sanctions. Brown, Jackson and Teague are iffy to return from last years recruiting class and odds are slim to none that the 3 of them will suit up in Knoxville their senior years.

Support Dooley and hope he continues to recruit well, keeps the current talent in school, instills discipline and work ethic in the players, and has UT competitive in 2012.
 
#554
#554
utmba93, bigpapavol and others. CDD's success or failure cannot be based on his W-L record at La Tech alone. You would need to be there when he arrived to see what he inherited and have watched the transformation in the program and team. You speak of all the programs in the SEC being equal in terms of facilities, S $, etc. but the same is and was not true for the WAC. La Tech was the bottom feeder by a long shot in that conference. The team he inherited believed it could only compete w/ only a few teams and was never destined to be even a .500 team. Compare that to last years team, even with the 4-8 record. There is no comparison. Last years team competed against every team they played and improved every game. Ask Tomey of San Jose State if Tech's record reflected the type of team they were. CDD's success at UT will be because of what most people don't know about him and that's what makes him tick, how he relates to players, their families and his staff, how he teaches and how meticulously he plans. Could he fail here? Of course. Will he fail here? If he does, it will be the 1st time and having followed his career, seen over 50% of games he has coached starting with SMU, I will be very surprised and so will many others including his Dad and Saban.
 
#555
#555
jarvol said:
The Dooley argument won't be close to being won for at least 3 or 4 more years. What you folks need to realize is the talent at UT is at its lowest point in 25 years. Forget the latest signing class. They will most likely have a minimal impact in 2010. Less than 50 scholarship athletes return. 22 scholarship athletes left the program for a variety of reasons over the past 1 year +. UT has in effect been in the same situation as having received severe probation sanctions. Brown, Jackson and Teague are iffy to return from last years recruiting class and odds are slim to none that the 3 of them will suit up in Knoxville their senior years.

Support Dooley and hope he continues to recruit well, keeps the current talent in school, instills discipline and work ethic in the players, and has UT competitive in 2012.
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The 2007 class was 3rd, the 2008 class was unranked, the 2009 class was 10th, and this year's class is ranked 9th.

Let's not get carried away with blaming whatever the outcomes on a lack of talent. The talent void is more about championships. The investment in CLK and company helped with that issue by signing back-to-back top 10 classes.

We need to be in the top 5 to win championships, so we can blame talent for failing to win championships. However, anything short of mediocrity (say 8 or 9 wins after this season) and we should look for another culprit.

Of course, as many have noted, hiring Dooley practically guarantees a top 5 class next year. :)
 
#556
#556
nickknx865 said:
Like I said, we did make 3 SECCG's and won or shared 4 division titles. The decade wasn't a complete failure.
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I agree. We should expect this from any staff as it is what we expected from Fulmer and his staff. Expecting less is a cop out.
 
#557
#557
flash said:
utmba93, bigpapavol and others. CDD's success or failure cannot be based on his W-L record at La Tech alone. You would need to be there when he arrived to see what he inherited and have watched the transformation in the program and team. You speak of all the programs in the SEC being equal in terms of facilities, S $, etc. but the same is and was not true for the WAC. La Tech was the bottom feeder by a long shot in that conference. The team he inherited believed it could only compete w/ only a few teams and was never destined to be even a .500 team. Compare that to last years team, even with the 4-8 record. There is no comparison. Last years team competed against every team they played and improved every game. Ask Tomey of San Jose State if Tech's record reflected the type of team they were. CDD's success at UT will be because of what most people don't know about him and that's what makes him tick, how he relates to players, their families and his staff, how he teaches and how meticulously he plans. Could he fail here? Of course. Will he fail here? If he does, it will be the 1st time and having followed his career, seen over 50% of games he has coached starting with SMU, I will be very surprised and so will many others including his Dad and Saban.
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We all hope you are right about him, of course. He's not off to a bad start.

But, he took a job where results is how he'll be measured. I'm sure he understands that as would his dad and Saban.
 
#558
#558
nickknx865 said:
Like I said, we did make 3 SECCG's and won or shared 4 division titles. The decade wasn't a complete failure.
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There is no such thing as a division title. It said to even consider such a thought when said division contains only 6 teams and 3 of them are Vandy, UK, and USCe.
 
#559
#559
utmba93 said:
I agree. We should expect this from any staff as it is what we expected from Fulmer and his staff. Expecting less is a cop out.
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I'm not expecting less. I'm just saying that it wasn't a complete bust and all we did was go 5-7, 6-6, 7-5. I made that statement to say that things could be far worse.

Obviously, I'd love to be where Alabama and Florida are at this point.
 
#560
#560
utmba93 said:
Nice pep talk, but we're not in the team locker room.

My wild speculation (insanity, in your view) does not reside in thoughts about possibilities, but is instead rooted in thoughts about probabilities.
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Pep talk nothing. Take a look at Chizik, anyone think that man would have been able to recruit like that and win those kind of games at Auburn after a less than stellar stint at a place like Iowa State?
 
#562
#562
nickknx865 said:
I'm not expecting less. I'm just saying that it wasn't a complete bust and all we did was go 5-7, 6-6, 7-5. I made that statement to say that things could be far worse.

Obviously, I'd love to be where Alabama and Florida are at this point.
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I totally agree. There were some good teams in that decade.

The 'bust' years above are good bookends for what this season is likely to yield (5-7 wins). We should expect a decent bowl in 2011 (Outback) and no less than the Capital One Bowl in 2012.
 
#564
#564
utmba93 said:
The 'bust' years above are good bookends for what this season is likely to yield (5-7 wins). We should expect a decent bowl in 2011 (Outback) and no less than the Capital One Bowl in 2012.
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That's about my expectations.
 
#565
#565
utmba93 said:
The 2007 class was 3rd, the 2008 class was unranked, the 2009 class was 10th, and this year's class is ranked 9th.

Let's not get carried away with blaming whatever the outcomes on a lack of talent. The talent void is more about championships. The investment in CLK and company helped with that issue by signing back-to-back top 10 classes.

We need to be in the top 5 to win championships, so we can blame talent for failing to win championships. However, anything short of mediocrity (say 8 or 9 wins after this season) and we should look for another culprit.

Of course, as many have noted, hiring Dooley practically guarantees a top 5 class next year. :)
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As I said you shouldn't depend on very much from true freshman.

Perhaps you should peruse that much heralded 2007 class, player by player, and see if you think it merits being anywhere remotely close to being in the discussion of the 3rd best rising senior class in college football. If you think the talent level isn't at its lowest since the mid-80s then give me a year or time period since that you would rather keep the 2010 team instead of trading it for another?
 
#566
#566
nickknx865 said:
Like I said, we did make 3 SECCG's and won or shared 4 division titles. The decade wasn't a complete failure.
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We lost in three SECCGs. There is no such thing as a "division title." (Especially one that you "share" while somebody else plays in the CG.) The only thing that losing the CG gets you is a worse bowl bid than you would have got otherwise.

Speaking of which, about 90 teams played in one of the only bowl games that matter in the last decade. None of them were from Knoxville. Unless you're satisfied with being a third-tier program, that's a decade of failure.
 
#567
#567
Vercingetorix said:
We lost in three SECCGs. There is no such thing as a "division title." (Especially one that you "share" while somebody else plays in the CG.) The only thing that losing the CG gets you is a worse bowl bid than you would have got otherwise.

Speaking of which, about 90 teams played in one of the only bowl games that matter in the last decade. None of them were from Knoxville. Unless you're satisfied with being a third-tier program, that's a decade of failure.
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nickknx865 said:
I'm not expecting less. I'm just saying that it wasn't a complete bust and all we did was go 5-7, 6-6, 7-5. I made that statement to say that things could be far worse.

Obviously, I'd love to be where Alabama and Florida are at this point.
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.
 
#569
#569
jarvol said:
As I said you shouldn't depend on very much from true freshman.

Perhaps you should peruse that much heralded 2007 class, player by player, and see if you think it merits being anywhere remotely close to being in the discussion of the 3rd best rising senior class in college football. If you think the talent level isn't at its lowest since the mid-80s then give me a year or time period since that you would rather keep the 2010 team instead of trading it for another?
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Considering the extraordinary disadvantage our new coach confronts, do you feel we should expect more than 5 wins this year and is 6 or 7 enough for the next four or so years?
 
#570
#570
utmba93 said:
How many years does Dooley get to produce hardware, in your mind?
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One can't even begin to have that evaluation until the end of the 2012 season. The program was run into the ditch by a $6 million hit and run driver. It will take take time regardless of the name of the coach. I believe the talent is at its lowest point in decades especially in the trenches on both sides of the ball, the total number of bodies is low, and UT is at the equivalent of coming off probation by having an entire class either dismissed or walk away.
 
#571
#571
utmba93 said:
Considering the extraordinary disadvantage our new coach confronts, do you feel we should expect more than 5 wins this year and is 6 or 7 enough for the next four or so years?
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I forecast 5-7 in 2010 and 7-5 in 2011 and being competitive in 2012. Obviously alot can change between now and September much less 2012. I wouldn't be surprised to see 4-8 next year and a loss to Kentucky nor would I deem the season a failure. UT's state of the program is where it is regardless whether people want to believe it or not. 2 walk-on OL started last year and couldn't be beat out by the OL who are going to be starting in 2010 for pete's sake.
 
#572
#572
jarvol said:
One can't even begin to have that evaluation until the end of the 2012 season. The program was run into the ditch by a $6 million hit and run driver. It will take take time regardless of the name of the coach. I believe the talent is at its lowest point in decades especially in the trenches on both sides of the ball, the total number of bodies is low, and UT is at the equivalent of coming off probation by having an entire class either dismissed or walk away.
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So, in your mind, the talent void excuses whatever outcomes our new skipper delivers? And, setting any expectations for him would be unreasonable. At the same time, claiming the last 10 years were total failure since they produced 'no hardware' makes sense.

I'm simply trying to figure out what standard applies. Is a Dooley season that doesn't produce hardware a complete failure? How many such seasons is reasonable?
 
#573
#573
I said TN was 5-8 years from being a contender again long ago,and if this hire fails it only extents the time table IMO.
 
#574
#574
jarvol said:
I forecast 5-7 in 2010 and 7-5 in 2011 and being competitive in 2012. Obviously alot can change between now and September much less 2012. I wouldn't be surprised to see 4-8 next year and a loss to Kentucky nor would I deem the season a failure. UT's state of the program is where it is regardless whether people want to believe it or not. 2 walk-on OL started last year and couldn't be beat out by the OL who are going to be starting in 2010 for pete's sake.
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Are 'being competitive' and 'winning hardware' semantic differences?

You wouldn't consider the worst record in UT history a failure... because of the talent void, right?
 
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#575
#575
utmba93 said:
To say that there is some doubt about whether CDD can ever win a championship at UT is a gross understatement.

There's also doubt that he can ever win the SEC East.

Instead, many here and in other UT circles, feel the best he can do is win may 10 games in his third year at UT, but never any more than that. In the meantime, many concede that he will help recruiting, but that he can not recruit as well as CLK and company. So, even his recruiting upside is limited versus the trajectory we were on.

Before anyone starts claiming that I don't want to Vols to win, let me clarify in saying that we all want the Vols to win.

Yet, is winning and restoring 'mediocrity' at UT over the next 6 or 7 years better for the Vols program, or would simply seeing Dooley repeat his LA Tech record at UT over the next two years get a proven coach on the Hill faster?
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It is getting a little disheartening to come on here and find someone who comes up with some of the most outrageous ideas.

Coach Dooley has shown unbelievable class; organization; character and integrity; and has done a great job with recruiting and hiring his staff; all under very trying and difficult circumstances. He has not coached a game at Tennessee yet, but I am very proud to have him as our coach, and I expect great things.

I would hope some of the people who sit around thinking of the most negative things they can think up to post would simply crawl in a hole somewhere and allow the true Vol fans to look forward to some great things.

I only hope Coach Dooley and his staff do not have the misfortune of running into some of these pitiful excuse for Vol fans.
 
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