What's best for the future of UT football: Dooley teams win or... (merged)

[TXA&M07]

agreed. The timing for Leach would have been tough. Coming off the BS scandal out West, and all. Still woulda been a step in a more "lateral" direction.

 

[utmba93]

No, just in general. I thought about that. But I really don't have near as much confidence in Malzahn as many on here seem to. He's a high school coach with a video game offense. I wouldn't be any more excited about him than I am about Dooley.

Yeh, I already punted on this one.

Now, I can't help but to think... about 25 lbs lighter and we'd have to walk all the way across the bar to get him.

 

[WA_Vol]

Leach never won anything at Texas Tech and, with the exception of one year, his records weren't much better than where TT was when he took over. He ran a gimmicky offense in a league where they don't play defense. He is also a fruitcake. Malzahn is building good resume as an OC, but nobody knows what kind of head guy he would be, and he'd be a huge reach right now for any SEC team other than Vandy and Kentucky and Ole Miss. If we'd hired him instead of Dooley, people would be foaming at the mouth about that too.

Complaining that we hired Dooley when these two guys were available is like making fun of your friend for going home with the 300-pound fat chick when there were still two 275-pounders left at the other end of the bar.

You can spin this however you want, but the numbers don't lie:

Leach: 84-43, .661
Dooley: 17-20, .459

The previous Texas Tech coach was 82-67, .550. Leach was significantly better. The Big 12 is a tougher conference then the WAC.

Malzahn isn't afraid to coach in the SEC, he was OC at both Arkansas and Auburn and he was the OC for the #1 offense in the country when he was at Tulsa. Dooley has never been an OC or DC before he became head coach at La Tech.

 

[WA_Vol]

Derek Dooley's success is key to future of Tennessee Volunteers AD Mike Hamilton - ESPN

Since there was some confusion over this...

I think it's more likely that Hamilton became interested in Dooley because 1) Muschamp spoke highly of him, who was Hamilton's first choice 2) 5 or more other coaches he approached turned him down.

I think Hamilton was surprised as everyone else that Kiffin left after one year. I think the list Hamilton had, was the same list he referred to when hired Kiffin a year earlier.

Considering Hamilton went through this process the year before with Kifin, and had spoken to a handful of candidates then, you would hope he would know who was interested and who wasn't. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

 

[WA_Vol]

Its absolutely ludicrous for anyone in their right mind to think Mike Leach would have been a good hire, talk about a bottomless hell. Its just amazing that other so-called "vol fans" could slam fellow vol fans for getting behind their new coach and offering him support - WHEN HE HAS GIVEN THEM NO REASON NOT TO. Don't you get it?? We are going to support whoever our HC is. For God sakes, we supported "ex" while everyone dawged him. We will support our HC except for two reasons:

1) If his record and ability is SHOWN to be at a level not satisfactory to the expected results, despite being given ample time to do his job.

2) His last name is Fulmer

Fans are behind the new coach. Doesn't mean fans cant question whether or not this was the most qualified coach to hire.

 

[3L with debt]

No way I would want either of these coaches...

They don't give me the warm and fuzzies but I would take either one before I would have hired CDD.

 

[TXA&M07]

Word.

Here's another way to break it down.

If I asked you 3 months ago if Derek Dooley was a football coach or a used auto parts salesman could you answer correctly?

Now replace Derek Dooley with Mike Leach in the same question. You picking up what Im laying down?

 

[3L with debt]

The Clay Travis article about the coaching search made it clear that Hamilton keeps and constantly tinkers with a list of potential replacements for his coaches. There's no reason to think he's quit doing that. I just don't think he could get anybody on it.

I don't disagree with you about the quality of the hire. I think the best thing to do, once Hamilton was down to the dregs of his list, would probably have been to name Kippy Brown interim coach and be first on the coaching carousel next year. But had Hamilton done that, we all know that there's a good chance he wouldn't have still been around to make the hire next year. I can't exactly blame the guy for making a move, ANY move, to save his own job. I also don't disagree that maybe that decision should have been taken out of Hamilton's hands, especially once it became obvious that he was being repeatedly turned down in his coaching search, but with UT not currently having a president, ousting Hamilton wasn't likely to come together that quickly. Simek isn't going to fire Hamilton on his own.

The fundamental problem is that, for various reasons, the roster and depth situation at Tennessee has been brought to the point where we can't even attract promising coaches from mid-majors. Leaving Utah for Tennessee ought to be a no-brainer. Leaving TCU for Tennessee ought to be a no-brainer. Leaving Air Force for Tennessee ought to be a no-brainer. But right now it's not.

I guess maybe we are talking at each other about whether or not MH had a list. Anyone can have a wish list but the type of list I am referring to would be a list of quality coaches that would have interest and, if not, how much money would it cost to "inspire" that coach to have interest. This is done routinely by competent ADs who currently have successful coaches under their emply. This list is complied through the use of agents and other third parties. My belief is that MH didn't even have have a "wish list" despite reports to the contrary (reports given by MH no less).

As to the rest of your post, I agree (especially about taking the decision out of MH's hands) with one exception. I do blame MH for saving his own job. He is employed to better UT athletics. Not make a mess of it.

 

[sjt18]

Leach was not a choice and shouldn't have been. The incident with the kid was bad enough... but his contract negotiation has "Don't Touch" written all over it.

 

[sjt18]

I think alot of MH's inability to get one of the guys higher on his list was the timing of Kiffin's departure. If I were a prospective coach and saw a roster like that and knew I'd have to finish off the class and build a staff all in less than 3 weeks... I'd say no too. And I'm a UT die hard.

People always compare to their next best option. The situation at UT 3 weeks before NSD wasn't better than Utah, AFA, Texas, etc. It might not even have been as good as La Tech. I think that Dooley took the job because of a genuine admiration for UT football. If he's any good, he would have gotten a shot somewhere within 3 years any way. If I had been in his shoes, I might well have said "No thanks"... call me in a couple of years.

 

[tvolsfan]

Word.

Here's another way to break it down.

If I asked you 3 months ago if Derek Dooley was a football coach or a used auto parts salesman could you answer correctly?

Now replace Derek Dooley with Mike Leach in the same question. You picking up what Im laying down?

I'd easily take Dooley over Leach.

 

[jobiwan]

I'd easily take Dooley over Leach.

Dooley has respect for the game. He's not a sound byte guy (fat little girlfriends) and he doesn't act like a pirate (Leach had a pirate-themed parking spot) and he's not a player puncher.

 

[oregonvol]

I'm not a fan of the Dooley hire, but hiring Mike Leach would have been a joke.

 

[Vercingetorix]

You can spin this however you want, but the numbers don't lie:

Leach: 84-43, .661
Dooley: 17-20, .459

The previous Texas Tech coach was 82-67, .550. Leach was significantly better. The Big 12 is a tougher conference then the WAC.

Malzahn isn't afraid to coach in the SEC, he was OC at both Arkansas and Auburn and he was the OC for the #1 offense in the country when he was at Tulsa. Dooley has never been an OC or DC before he became head coach at La Tech.

At least you can squint your eyes, have a couple of beers, and try to convince yourself that Dooley is young and has an upside. Leach has none. On the field, he's an average coach who had one good year and never won anything; personally, he's a loser. Malzahn would have been better than Leach, though he's still a blind gamble as a head coach. But as far as I know, he's got no recruiting credentials as all, so if he flops then you're potentially REALLY in a hole. Dooley at least to have some credentials and potential as a recruiter, so if he's a failure then at least the next guy will have the roster rebuilt.

I'm not arguing that Dooley was anything other than a crappy hire. But so would Leach and Malzahn have been.

 

[sjt18]

Dooley... and he's not a player puncher.

Woops... You must not have seen the video where he smacked that OL.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Considering Hamilton went through this process the year before with Kifin, and had spoken to a handful of candidates then, you would hope he would know who was interested and who wasn't. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

It was a different situation in November 2008 than it was in January 2010. If you're Gary Patterson, you might have been pretty interested in 2008 after Fulmer was fired. But then Kiffin kicked 20 guys off the team, and then he left only three weeks before NSD. Suddenly the Tennessee job doesn't look so good to you anymore.

 

[utmba93]

I think alot of MH's inability to get one of the guys higher on his list was the timing of Kiffin's departure. If I were a prospective coach and saw a roster like that and knew I'd have to finish off the class and build a staff all in less than 3 weeks... I'd say no too. And I'm a UT die hard.

People always compare to their next best option. The situation at UT 3 weeks before NSD wasn't better than Utah, AFA, Texas, etc. It might not even have been as good as La Tech. I think that Dooley took the job because of a genuine admiration for UT football. If he's any good, he would have gotten a shot somewhere within 3 years any way. If I had been in his shoes, I might well have said "No thanks"... call me in a couple of years.

Come on, sjt. I was okay with this up to the sentence in bold. It's taken me a while to get this far. Let's go a little slower on the WAC job being better than the UT job. This is hard enough. Okay?

 

[jobiwan]

Word.

Here's another way to break it down.

If I asked you 3 months ago if Derek Dooley was a football coach or a used auto parts salesman could you answer correctly?

Now replace Derek Dooley with Mike Leach in the same question. You picking up what Im laying down?

Name recognition doesn't mean anything. Did anyone know who Jim Tressel (Youngstown State) was? Did anyone know who Frank Beamer (Murray State) was? Did anyone really know who Urban Meyer (1 National win at Utah) was? No

Coaches are picked to be the best fit at their school. Hamilton thought Dooley was the best available fit for Tennessee, and so far I think he's right.

 

[jobiwan]

Woops... You must not have seen the video where he smacked that OL.

You are correct. :mf_surrender:

 

[utmba93]

I think it's more likely that Hamilton became interested in Dooley because 1) Muschamp spoke highly of him, who was Hamilton's first choice 2) 5 or more other coaches he approached turned him down.

I think Hamilton was surprised as everyone else that Kiffin left after one year. I think the list Hamilton had, was the same list he referred to when hired Kiffin a year earlier.

Considering Hamilton went through this process the year before with Kifin, and had spoken to a handful of candidates then, you would hope he would know who was interested and who wasn't. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

That would explain hiring a 4-8 coach from the WAC. Hamilton hadn't considered the data from this season when he made his list last year. Finally, it makes sense. Dooley was a better hire last year as no one would have assumed he'd tank the 2009 season.

 

[sjt18]

Come on, sjt. I was okay with this up to the sentence in bold. It's taken me a while to get this far. Let's go a little slower on the WAC job being better than the UT job. This is hard enough. Okay?

My point is that it wouldn't have been a better job if the UT job had been open in November or December like when Kiffin took over. He had the No Contact weeks of December to assemble a staff and a battle plan then start on the attack while other teams were bowling.

At the moment Dooley said "yes", UT was "fragile" to put it lightly.

I think Calhoun or one of the other guys higher up the list would have taken the job if it had been offered in December. If I were in their shoes, I would have surmised that the roster is depleted and/or has alot of unknowns and that there was a high risk of not signing the needed players in the '10 class due to the timing. I would have figured that I probably wouldn't have the players I needed to be successful and keep the job. The risks were just too great to take a job that could destroy your reputation and have you unemployed in 3 years.

 

[utmba93]

My point is that it wouldn't have been a better job if the UT job had been open in November or December like when Kiffin took over. He had the No Contact weeks of December to assemble a staff and a battle plan then start on the attack while other teams were bowling.

At the moment Dooley said "yes", UT was "fragile" to put it lightly.

I think Calhoun or one of the other guys higher up the list would have taken the job if it had been offered in December. If I were in their shoes, I would have surmised that the roster is depleted and/or has alot of unknowns and that there was a high risk of not signing the needed players in the '10 class due to the timing. I would have figured that I probably wouldn't have the players I needed to be successful and keep the job. The risks were just too great to take a job that could destroy your reputation and have you unemployed in 3 years.

Yeh, this last paragraph is what I thought you were inferring earlier about the other candidates. They will get better jobs soon (probably December as you suggest). And, they would have taken the UT job this December. So, we could have waited for them. This would also favor the 'give Kippy a chance' option.

After his '09 stinker, I'd say the jury was still out on Dooley and his prospects to move up, though.

 

[sjt18]

After his '09 stinker, I'd say the jury was still out on Dooley and his prospects to move up, though.

Maybe. But one thing it appears he can do is recruit. I think it is pretty fair to say that Dooley would have added to La Tech's 17 signees and had one of the better classes in the WAC. In his previous two years, he had the 3rd and 2nd best classes in the WAC with 3 different teams finishing ahead of him in those two years. IOW's his avg class was probably the best for those two years.

He had signed a boat load of kids from Tx and La. It looks like he was assembling the talent to win in the WAC.

 

[utmba93]

Maybe. But one thing it appears he can do is recruit. I think it is pretty fair to say that Dooley would have added to La Tech's 17 signees and had one of the better classes in the WAC. In his previous two years, he had the 3rd and 2nd best classes in the WAC with 3 different teams finishing ahead of him in those two years. IOW's his avg class was probably the best for those two years.

He had signed a boat load of kids from Tx and La. It looks like he was assembling the talent to win in the WAC.

Recruiting is the best argument for Dooley and is likely his strongest card. He should do well in Georgia and Virgina, especially. He may restock the team and that is needed.

Viewing him as our Zook before Meyer guy is about as far as I can go with expectations based on his record.

Also, nobody takes it seriously, but I've said a few times that he could make a good AD. If Hamilton lasts as long as he does, that could be an option. He's a smart man, good speaker, knows and respects UT's traditions, can sell Tennessee, etc. Ironically, he's done a better job at hiring coaches than Hamilton did.

I just don't think he can coach. So, I hope we don't take forever trying to figure that out.

Some of his assistants may develop over the next few years. We're going to struggle in 2010 and 2011. His third year is an unknown.

By then, he could get the program in better shape and make it more attractive. The Vols need to show some promise this fall for him to pull off the recruiting feat that lies ahead. It's going to be touch and go for a while, imo.

 

[Jewbaccah]

Ok Ok, I will throw my hat in this endless speculation. I choose to try to be postive. Dooley will do as well as his coordinators perform or are allowed to perform. Does he have A rated coordinators? Offense for sure. Defense is a maybe. Will he let them have free rain? We have no idea. He is a micromanager from the rep I have heard. On the other hand he seems very humble. We can only hope he lets Chaney be Chaney.

UTmba93---Why so gloom? You can choose to be more optimistic? You and I both know we don't know. You might as well hold on to your mojo until facts are facts. At that point I will cry in my soup with you.