Why Reality Blows Up Anti-Abortion Rhetoric

#151
#151
Vol8188 said:
Any reason at all. That’s elective. As opposed to medically necessary. He stated he didn’t believe abortion should be up to him because he shouldn’t force his views on others.

So if you hold to that notion, you would have to say an abortion at 9 months should be legal for any reason. Otherwise you’re forcing your views on others
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"Any reason at all" includes medically necessary. Please refine further.
 
#152
#152
AshG said:
"Any reason at all" includes medically necessary. Please refine further.
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Do you believe all abortions should be legal for any reason? If the woman wants an abortion at 9 months, so be it.

Is that your stance?
 
#154
#154
Vol8188 said:
Do you believe all abortions should be legal for any reason? If the woman wants an abortion at 9 months, so be it.

Is that your stance?
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That question is all over the place. You begin with a nebulous blanket statement, then move to an extremely tight set of bounds. I have no faith that any answer I provide won't be twisted to mean something I didn't say.
 
#155
#155
MontyPython said:
My point seems pretty clear: If we're going to assign a "right to life" for an unborn fetus because that fetus is a "human being", then all the rights of being a human being (here in America at least) shall equally apply. One cannot disassociate inherent rights.

If people are good with the craziness that results, so be it.
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What rights does an unborn baby not have that a newborn does here in the US?

Minus the obvious one of life of course.
 
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#156
#156
AshG said:
That question is all over the place. You begin with a nebulous blanket statement, then move to an extremely tight set of bounds. I have no faith that any answer I provide won't be twisted to mean something I didn't say.
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I have no bounds (edit to clarify I mean the question has no bounds. I’ve established where I believe the boundaries should be set). Idk where you’re getting that. That’s why I’m picking the most extreme example. I’m trying to establish if you have any boundaries.

Why is that so hard to answer? Do you believe in any legal boundaries on abortion?
 
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#159
#159
It’s odd multiple people in this thread will proclaim it’s wrong to force your views of abortion onto others, but none of them will simply state a 9 month elective abortion is acceptable…..

Why?
 
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#161
#161
hog88 said:
Because they know that they are hypocrites.
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It’s amazing. They’ve pretended it’s an unfair question like “do you still hit your wife” or claiming supporting guns is support of murder”. It’s merely an attempt to see if they truly believe their own absurd claim. If you want no boundaries on abortion just say so
 
#162
#162
Vol8188 said:
I have no bounds (edit to clarify I mean the question has no bounds. I’ve established where I believe the boundaries should be set). Idk where you’re getting that. That’s why I’m picking the most extreme example. I’m trying to establish if you have any boundaries.

Why is that so hard to answer? Do you believe in any legal boundaries on abortion?
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My personal beliefs and boundaries are as follows:
1. Access up to 20 weeks in consultation with a medical professional.
2. 20 weeks and beyond allow for a D&E or caesarean removal for deceased infants or grotesquely malformed infants where there is no possibility of any quality of life outside the womb.
3. Medical doctors may, at any time, remove a viable or non-viable unborn child from a mother for the purpose of saving her life (i.e. compromised uterine or fallopian pregnancies, fetal rejection syndrome).
4. A woman may, at any time, have her fallopian tubes and/or uterus ablated or removed for the purpose of no longer bearing children; no consent of a spouse or significant other will be required.
 
#163
#163
Vol8188 said:
It’s odd multiple people in this thread will proclaim it’s wrong to force your views of abortion onto others, but none of them will simply state a 9 month elective abortion is acceptable…..

Why?
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I have personal beliefs but do not think they should all be forced on others. You do so we're at an impasse

You went from 6wks to 9mos with no stops. It's a ridiculous exercise. I know my personal beliefs are on this board many times over if you're interested. However if you still consider a fetus viable as 6wks then it's not worth it.
 
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#164
#164
AshG said:
Abortions Later in Pregnancy

Abortions occurring at or after 21 weeks gestational age are rare. They are often difficult to obtain, as they are typically costly, time-intensive and only performed by a small subset of abortion providers. Yet these abortions receive a disproportionate amount of attention in the news, policy and the law, and discussions on this topic are often fraught with misinformation; for example, intense public discussions have been sparked after several policymakers have theorized about abortions occurring “moments before birth” or even “after birth.” In reality, these scenarios do not occur, nor are they legal, in the U.S.
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Police shootings of black Americans are rare. The overwhelmingly vast majority of police interactions are peaceful.
Yet these shootings receive a disproportionate amount of attention in the news, policy and the law, and discussions on this topic are often fraught with misinformation.

So since police shootings represent less than .01% of all police interactions we can go ahead and dismiss them outright.
 
#165
#165
I'm pro abortion. At conception, 18th trimester, 50 years old, whatever. More abortion = less poor people, less criminals, less strain on American taxpayers. Government funded could be looked at like an investment with infinite positive returns.
 
#166
#166
Vol8188 said:
So you’re okay with an elective abortion at 9 months because the kid doesn’t yet have a social?
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Not sure I understand what you're asking, but no, I'm not good with universal rights to an abortion. But, if a child is found to have horrific problems (e.g. Down's Syndrome) at a very late stage, or if the mother is at serious risk to die, then yes, in certain circumstances a late-term abortion seems reasonable to me.
 
#167
#167
AshG said:
My personal beliefs and boundaries are as follows:
1. Access up to 20 weeks in consultation with a medical professional.
2. 20 weeks and beyond allow for a D&E or caesarean removal for deceased infants or grotesquely malformed infants where there is no possibility of any quality of life outside the womb.
3. Medical doctors may, at any time, remove a viable or non-viable unborn child from a mother for the purpose of saving her life (i.e. compromised uterine or fallopian pregnancies, fetal rejection syndrome).
4. A woman may, at any time, have her fallopian tubes and/or uterus ablated or removed for the purpose of no longer bearing children; no consent of a spouse or significant other will be required.
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Thank you. That’s not very unreasonable. May I ask why 20 specifically? And do you accept that most done after 20 are for non-medical reasons?
 
#168
#168
Vol8188 said:
Thank you. That’s not very unreasonable. May I ask why 20 specifically? And do you accept that most done after 20 are for non-medical reasons?
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20 is a middle ground. I could be convinced to go down towards 16.

And no, I do not accept that most done after 20 weeks are elective.
 
#169
#169
Vol8188 said:
But not always. So your stance is that abortion used to be bad and now it’s not? Does legality determine if abortion is a positive or negative to you?
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Assigning "good" or "bad" to abortions is pointless. Women become pregnant and don't want their baby for lots of reasons, so it's just a simple reality.
 
#170
#170
utvolpj said:
I have personal beliefs but do not think they should all be forced on others. You do so we're at an impasse

You went from 6wks to 9mos with no stops. It's a ridiculous exercise. I know my personal beliefs are on this board many times over if you're interested. However if you still consider a fetus viable as 6wks then it's not worth it.
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There’s nothing ridiculous at all. And at no people have I claimed 6 weeks is viable outside the womb. That’s not my reasoning for 6 weeks, which I’ve established but can restate if you wish.

You said you didn’t want to force your views on others. That’s why I ask about 9 month elective abortions?

Should that be legal? It’s a very simple question
 
#171
#171
AshG said:
20 is a middle ground. I could be convinced to go down towards 16.

And no, I do not accept that most done after 20 weeks are elective.
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Yet I provided you data saying so? You disagree with the data?

And I really don’t think you’re being unreasonable at 16. I was just curious if it was based on a developmental landmark
 
#173
#173
MontyPython said:
Assigning "good" or "bad" to abortions is pointless. Women become pregnant and don't want their baby for lots of reasons, so it's just a simple reality.
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Like it's already dead. Or it's inside their fallopian tube and will kill them. Or their body is attacking it as if it were a foreign body. Or their body is going into severe preeclampsia and they are about to die. Or...
 
#175
#175
Vol8188 said:
There’s nothing ridiculous at all. And at no people have I claimed 6 weeks is viable outside the womb. That’s not my reasoning for 6 weeks, which I’ve established but can restate if you wish.

You said you didn’t want to force your views on others. That’s why I ask about 9 month elective abortions?

Should that be legal? It’s a very simple question
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Because I've answered it so many times. When a fetus is viable on it's own. You also have to be able to understand when testing can be done on a fetus. 9-10wks minimum and even that is risky. But it's worth it if you've got known issues (thanks to the us govt)

But yes, you did say 6wks was a viable fetus. Maybe not what you meant but it's what you posted.
 
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