Will Butch Jones be a better coach this year?

[DD4ME]

I agree with this 100%, he set this up so that this years team can start fresh and forget all those down years, this is a big step in changing the Loser Mentality that the team has had the last few years.

However I disagree with the last part of your post because Butch is doing the single most important and the hardest thing for becoming a national contender and that's recruiting. its what Saban did and what Fischer did at FSU.

recruit,recruit,recruit. That is the bottom line and Butch is proving he can do that.

Saban is NOT the greatest coach ever but I do believe he is the greatest recruiter in the history of college football. In 48 years of being a CFB fan I have never seen a team/coach recruit the #1 class in a row like he has and is doing. Its easy to look like a great coach when you recruit like that.

Its exactly what Fischer did at FSU also. He recruited top classes every year then BAM one day you look up and they are in the NCG.

give CBJ time and I believe he will do the same thing here. I would rather have decent coaches that are great recruiters, than great coaches who cant recruit.

Our coaches can "by god" recruit with the best of them.
Its all about recruiting guys.

I agree with all points. My point was only that his greatest achievement in recruiting to this point was that massive class it's greater even than the sum of it's good parts. Which to me is kind of the CBJ mantra. He's not Saban in recruiting he's not Malzahn on scheme, he's not Kiffen on coach hires but hopefully he does a lot of things good.

 

[thebjd]

There's not a coach alive that could take the current roster, with it's current experience, and this year's schedule, and win more than 6 games. The only real question is whether the idiot brigade wing of VN can get their heads around that, and be patient til 2016.

I hope our players don't read this.

 

[DD4ME]

Turn back the clock to 2007 - UT (#20) vs. Alabama (unranked).

UT heavily favored; UA already lost to 2nd tier school.

What did Saban do?

Started the game off with a on-side kick - that's right - on-side kick.Alabama recovered and UT didn't. Game over. Alabama - 41 / UT - 17.

That is what truly great coaches do when they have nothing to lose. UT had nothing to lose last year and I would have appreciated a little more creativity. I'm fully behind Jones (not one negative post from me to date). I just hope that we see some more evidence of the ability to win games than we have to date. If UT had won against UF, UGA and Vandy (and they could have and perhaps should have), then I'd say we have the next Saban on our hands. But since he didn't.....we'll see.

Well said. I agree. Maybe it was the players but we didn't do lots to fix it. On the field. Off the field really isn't a debate though, Butch did.

 

[StlCardinals2618]

This is going to sound extremely and ridiculously oversimplifying the issue but I had a conversation with a former big time coach who strongly impressed on me the difference in our season (with obvious smaller less impacting issues) was the inability for our back 7 to close .... or as several people including game analyst put in..."they just take bad angles"....there's NO DOUBT in the Oregon, Florida, Alabama, Auburn, and Missouri game they took DIRECT advantage of this flaw over and over again by running the wide receiver screen or a variation of it...The coach said it wasn't bad angles and all the dissecting of our defense that went on....it was one huge thing....LACK OF SPEED IN THE BACK SEVEN...hopefully we are starting to get that corrected...not there yet but working on it....He said "bad angles" is code for SLOW, SLOW, SLOW....

Doug Matthews talked about how our defense will look much different last year. He pretty much said Jancek couldn't do anything with what he had. We will see much more blitzing and man coverage this year.

Wilcox did the same thing while he was here. Its nothing but zone coverage and hope they don't find the hole.

I think everyone remembers what happened when you try to play defense like Alabama with a lot of man and blitzes without the talent. You get the great defense of 2012.

 

[sameolvol]

This is going to sound extremely and ridiculously oversimplifying the issue but I had a conversation with a former big time coach who strongly impressed on me the difference in our season (with obvious smaller less impacting issues) was the inability for our back 7 to close .... or as several people including game analyst put in..."they just take bad angles"....there's NO DOUBT in the Oregon, Florida, Alabama, Auburn, and Missouri game they took DIRECT advantage of this flaw over and over again by running the wide receiver screen or a variation of it...The coach said it wasn't bad angles and all the dissecting of our defense that went on....it was one huge thing....LACK OF SPEED IN THE BACK SEVEN...hopefully we are starting to get that corrected...not there yet but working on it....He said "bad angles" is code for SLOW, SLOW, SLOW....

Thanks and a "like" for you and your coach friend for pointing out the proper extrapolation for this predictable formula. Speed kills. We had none, and even perfect alignment and the most efficient angles won't work when the speed differential between the two opponents is too great to be overcome. Some of us get it.

 

[oregonvol]

I should have been more clear I said transitions. It was time for Fulmer to go but it should and could have been better planned managed and staged. Dooley the same. Managing these scenarios seems as relevant to on field results as the coaching. I could envision a mediocre Fulmer team doing well in the east some of these last years. Just my 2 cents.

Well, by the end, Fulmer was worse than mediocre, he was outright bad, and it wasn't getting better. There is no basis to conclude it wouldn't have continued its downward trajectory. Also, if "a mediocre Fulmer team" is what you aspire to for your program, then that's rather sad. Even Vanderbilt has gotten better than that in recent years.

But I do think we're in agreement on the poor management and planning. It amazes me that we have people in charge of our multimillion dollar athletic program who thought Lane Kiffin was trustworthy and who thought that Derek Dooley could ever win in the SEC (and even though Hamilton is gone, alot of the people involved in those decisions are still making them). It may work out with Butch Jones, but I can't shake the feeling that he was just a guess, not the product of a laborious search and a thorough vetting of candidates, but just a "hey, who is out there who wants the job and we don't have to do any work to get?" More than any coach, it seems like our decision makers and their lack of commitment, knowledge, and capability is what continues to hold our program back.

 

[sjt18]

Why do people keep saying this? The defense improved in almost all categories last year compared to 2012. So in all actuality the offensive staff has a lot to prove this year. Do some research before you make comments like this.

"Improved" is a relative term. Wilcox fielded better D's and probably had less to work with. "Improved" from 2012 to 2013 meant nothing more than going from the worst scoring D in UT history to the 2nd worst scoring D in UT history. That's not exactly what the Vols need to get it turned around.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

Well, by the end, Fulmer was worse than mediocre, he was outright bad, and it wasn't getting better. There is no basis to conclude it wouldn't have continued its downward trajectory. Also, if "a mediocre Fulmer team" is what you aspire to for your program, then that's rather sad. Even Vanderbilt has gotten better than that in recent years.

But I do think we're in agreement on the poor management and planning. It amazes me that we have people in charge of our multimillion dollar athletic program who thought Lane Kiffin was trustworthy and who thought that Derek Dooley could ever win in the SEC (and even though Hamilton is gone, alot of the people involved in those decisions are still making them). It may work out with Butch Jones, but I can't shake the feeling that he was just a guess, not the product of a laborious search and a thorough vetting of candidates, but just a "hey, who is out there who wants the job and we don't have to do any work to get?" More than any coach, it seems like our decision makers and their lack of commitment, knowledge, and capability is what continues to hold our program back.

Everyone was turning down the freakin job. So was CBJ a shot in the dark? No one will know.

 

[sjt18]

There's not a coach alive that could take the current roster, with it's current experience, and this year's schedule, and win more than 6 games. The only real question is whether the idiot brigade wing of VN can get their heads around that, and be patient til 2016.

Sorry. But NONE of this is true. There are SIX games in which the Vols will be more talented. There are at least 3 more where the talent will be close enough that coaching could turn the game. OU, Bama, and possibly UGA are the only games where the "current roster, with it's current experience" means the game is probably out of reach.

 

[Volfreak1964]

Better players! For an already good coach!

 

[StlCardinals2618]

Well, by the end, Fulmer was worse than mediocre, he was outright bad, and it wasn't getting better. There is no basis to conclude it wouldn't have continued its downward trajectory. Also, if "a mediocre Fulmer team" is what you aspire to for your program, then that's rather sad. Even Vanderbilt has gotten better than that in recent years.

But I do think we're in agreement on the poor management and planning. It amazes me that we have people in charge of our multimillion dollar athletic program who thought Lane Kiffin was trustworthy and who thought that Derek Dooley could ever win in the SEC (and even though Hamilton is gone, alot of the people involved in those decisions are still making them). It may work out with Butch Jones, but I can't shake the feeling that he was just a guess, not the product of a laborious search and a thorough vetting of candidates, but just a "hey, who is out there who wants the job and we don't have to do any work to get?" More than any coach, it seems like our decision makers and their lack of commitment, knowledge, and capability is what continues to hold our program back.

As of right now, Butch Jones and Donnie Tyndall seem like very similar coaches as far as attitude and approach. It seems like Hart has a certain criteria that he wants out of his coaches.

 

[Boca Vol]

There's not a coach alive that could take the current roster, with it's current experience, and this year's schedule, and win more than 6 games. The only real question is whether the idiot brigade wing of VN can get their heads around that, and be patient til 2016.

Sorry. But NONE of this is true. There are SIX games in which the Vols will be more talented. There are at least 3 more where the talent will be close enough that coaching could turn the game. OU, Bama, and possibly UGA are the only games where the "current roster, with it's current experience" means the game is probably out of reach.

I agree with sjt18 on this. UT can win 6 cames this season by beating:

USU
Ark St.
UTC
UK
Vandy
Mizzou

5 of those games are home with the away game at Vandy which a "home" game for UT as well.

Those are 6 "meh" wins but it would get UT to a bowl. It would resemble Miss State from last season. Here was their season:

Wins

Alcorn St.
Troy
Bowling Green
UK
Ark
Ole Miss
Rice (Bowl Game)

Losses

Bama
LSU
Auburn
aTM
USCjr
OK State

So Miss St. went to a bowl with a pretty patheic 6 wins. UT can do that this year. It would be nice if UT went 7-5 because that would mean they beat either: UF, UGA, or USCjr.

 

[ajvol01]

Saban, spurrier, franklin, miles, and a few others would have figured out wins against Vandy and UF.

Funny, I seem to remember Saint Nick losing to Louisiana Monroe in 2007 and finishing 6-6.

 

[GhostHound]

Saban, spurrier, franklin, miles, and a few others would have figured out wins against Vandy and UF.

Saban...In his first season at Bama went 6-6 and lost to Louisiana Lafayette.

It ain't the Xs and Os, it's the Jimmies and Joes.

 

[StlCardinals2618]

I agree with sjt18 on this. UT can win 6 cames this season by beating:

USU
Ark St.
UTC
UK
Vandy
Mizzou

5 of those games are home with the away game at Vandy which a "home" game for UT as well.

Those are 6 "meh" wins but it would get UT to a bowl. It would resemble Miss State from last season. Here was their season:

Wins Losses

Alcorn St. Bama
Troy LSU
Bowling Green Auburn
UK aTm
Ark S. Carolina
Ole Miss OK St.
Rice (Bowl Game)

So Miss St. went to a bowl with a pretty patheic 6 wins. UT can do that this year. It would be nice if UT went 7-5 because that would mean they beat either: UF, UGA, or USCjr.

Mizzou is going to be a solid team. Maty Mauck is probably the best qb in the SEC and Pinkel has always recruited OL and DL very well. They will probably have a top dline this year too. That Mizzou team last year was a very physical good team. Mizzou will be a tough win and a pretty big upset.

We are probably on the same talent level as Vandy so there will be no room for error. Thats going to be tough game.

6 wins is doable, but will be very tough. Of course, last year people thought AU and Mizzou would be awful and UF would be great so these kind of predictions are pointless.

 

[gunner]

Butch and his staff can't be fully evaluated until they have a full roster of their players, but another loss to Vanderbilt or even worse, Kentucky would be very damaging for their reputation with most UT fans. They must show some progress on the field this season another 5-7 record or worse would put them on the warm seat for 2015 regardless of how well he recruits. 2015 is the year that must win 8 or more, 2016 9 or more IMO.

 

[iKrager]

Solid thread after all

 

[sjt18]

Saban...In his first season at Bama went 6-6 and lost to Louisiana Lafayette.

It ain't the Xs and Os, it's the Jimmies and Joes.

Saban is an excellent coach that took over a team discipline situation much like what Kiffin hit when he arrived and cut a bunch of guys loose. Bama lost to a mid-major... then followed that up with an undefeated regular season. Got news for you... the difference wasn't all or even mainly "Jimmy's and Joe's". They didn't even have THAT much roster turnover. He was able to work in guys like Julio Jones, Maze, and Ingram on O to make a difference. On D, only ONE Fr was in their top 14 in tackles. MOST of their contributors were Jr and Sr holdovers that were part of the team that lost to ULM.

He was able to develop those players and implement his system with them. Jones should be able to do the same if he's the right guy for UT.

I'm not fond of Saban in any way but he is a VERY good defensive coach and strategic HC. He has a formula that wins and has honed it to near perfection... including getting the right players. There ARE players that have excelled in Saban's D scheme that would have been mediocre or worse players in most 4-3 D's. He discovers talent but he coaches them up too.

 

[sjt18]

Butch and his staff can't be fully evaluated until they have a full roster of their players, but another loss to Vanderbilt or even worse, Kentucky would be very damaging for their reputation with most UT fans. They must show some progress on the field this season another 5-7 record or worse would put them on the warm seat for 2015 regardless of how well he recruits. 2015 is the year that must win 8 or more, 2016 9 or more IMO.

So you are saying that Dooley should have gotten one or two more years? He never coached a roster made up totally of his players.

You can ALWAYS evaluate a coach based on what they do with what they've got. I think we'd agree that this is a 6-8 win roster, right? Next year is an 9+ win roster IMO once you also consider that the schedule appears to lighten a tad. He will have 3 full classes of his own creation by then which will probably comprise well over 85% of the roster. He will have had 3+ years to shape and develop those players.

I think you are saying we need to see steady improvement and if so I completely agree with that.

 

[alaVOL]

Will a year of battle, help CBJ better prepare for games, make better adjustments, and generally be a better football coach or as with Dooley, do you get what you get and live with it? Many say that at this level, there is no learning curve. You are what you are, so to speak. Obviously talent and staff dictate how a coach handles business, but in the SEC, does Jones deserve the benefit of a learning curve?

Benefit of a learning curve? What did everyone expect last year? I'm confused on this one.

 

[sjt18]

Mizzou is going to be a solid team. Maty Mauck is probably the best qb in the SEC and Pinkel has always recruited OL and DL very well. They will probably have a top dline this year too. That Mizzou team last year was a very physical good team. Mizzou will be a tough win and a pretty big upset.

Mizzou lost most of the pieces that made the machine run last year. Best two DL's, 2 LB's, 3 of 4 starting DB's including by far and away the best one.

On O, they lost ALL of the WR's that any SEC team has reason to fear. They return two solid RB's but lost their leader. Their OL lost two including their LT and best player.

Mauk started 4 games and threw for under 50% in 3 of them... including UT. That's hardly "best QB in the SEC" type stuff. Now he'll be trying to improve that without DGB, Washington, and Lucas... and without Britt.

All this before you even consider that the schedule last year literally laid down in front of them. UGA, UF, and UT ALL lost critical players before playing Mizzou.

We are probably on the same talent level as Vandy so there will be no room for error. Thats going to be tough game.

That... is ludicrous. It isn't even close. UT would have an advantage even without the new players.

6 wins is doable, but will be very tough. Of course, last year people thought AU and Mizzou would be awful and UF would be great so these kind of predictions are pointless.

Mizzou had a charmed season and SOME of us knew that Auburn had a lot of talent.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Holy mother of god. After one year and this post already? A coach with a new system comes in and this is posted? Really? Maybe Attention Deficit Disorder is actually real..

 

[FLVOL_79]

Mizzou is going to be a solid team. Maty Mauck is probably the best qb in the SEC and Pinkel has always recruited OL and DL very well. They will probably have a top dline this year too. That Mizzou team last year was a very physical good team. Mizzou will be a tough win and a pretty big upset.

We are probably on the same talent level as Vandy so there will be no room for error. Thats going to be tough game.

6 wins is doable, but will be very tough. Of course, last year people thought AU and Mizzou would be awful and UF would be great so these kind of predictions are pointless.

What..the..F...? :crazy:hmy::ermm::unsure:


lol:

 

[ajvol01]

Benefit of a learning curve? What did everyone expect last year? I'm confused on this one.

10 wins, SEC East Champs at a minimum












Jk

 

[sjt18]

10 wins, SEC East Champs at a minimum












Jk

:lolabove:

Seriously though I would settle for good, consistent effort, great coaching, 6-8 wins, all games competitive, and another solid recruiting class.