Will Tennessee ever return to national contender status?

#402
#402
Just some random thoughts:

I purposely did not want to reply to a specific post but attempt to address several areas. AD White released the UTK five year strategic plan last year. That plan specifies metrics for each of UT's 20 sports. The plan sets as an objective that each sport will finish in the top 16 in the nation at least once every four years. The plan also states that each sport should compete for a SEC championship every five years.

www.knoxnews.com

Tennessee athletics has a 5-year plan under Danny White — and national titles are part of it

Tennessee set ambitious goals to increase revenue, boost season-ticket sales and win championships in a five-year strategic plan released Thursday.
www.knoxnews.com

Although, we all understand that finishing in the top sixteen in women's basketball should be a floor and not the ceiling; however, that is not the metric specified in the UTK Athletics Strategic Plan.

So, trying to separate fact from perception, Coach Harper finished in the top sixteen last year and she played South Carolina for the SEC tournament championship. Those accomplishments were in her fourth year. So she met the metric that governs her performace. Hence an extension to her contract and a salary increase.

Coach Harper's total compensation is over a million a year and her performace should definitely be scrutinized. She must recruit better and she needs to win the SEC regular season or tournament in the next two years. We all understand as does Coach Harper, when your compensation is over 7 figures you must produce. I'll be pulling for her as stability is a pillar of long term success.
 
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#403
#403
I'll be pulling for her as stability is a
pillar of long term success.

Laughable. We have come a long way. Remember when the bench mark was winning a NC..........period.
Now its top 16?????? And they discussion of how "nice" Coach Harper is. Yes she is................but she is being paid a Million Dollars+ to do a job in front of a dwindling audience at the Tommy Bowl. She is not getting it done and we need to move on......
Next will be "we're not in top 16" but we're competitive.
The University of Tennessee brought Women's Basketball to prominence. Now, sadly we discuss "if" and "when" we get "the" recruits.
Wake up..............they aint comin to this Coach!!!
 
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#404
#404
IMO those White metrics are pretty lame. First, if I were the AD at Tennessee I wouldn't, for the most part, use generic metrics
to analyze a program and its coach. I would look at the history of the program--what it has achieved (or not) in the past--and what
its status/situation was when the coach took over the program. Was it in good shape---had the program been successful in the years prior to
the new coach taking over or was it in rough shape--near the bottom of the conference. And then you assess the progress of the program in
the years since the coach grabbed the reins. Has the program improved--and if so, how much? Or has it regressed?

The women's basketball program here should have the most demanding metrics of any sport. The program was not in great shape when Harper took over--but it's got a tradition of 8 national titles to build on, second most in the history of the sport. Any good coach should be able to use that tradition to advantage. Harper, frankly, has not. She has shown herself to be a slightly better coach than Warlick, but she hasn't moved the needle much; she hasn't moved the program forward very much at all. Hell, we've got a tradition of 8 national titles and yet she and her staff are poor recruiters. That's a big negative. With our women's BB tradition, as someone above noted, finishing in the top 16 every four years shouldn't be good enough--that should be the floor. Compete for a conference championship? No: WIN a conference title every four years. Get into the Final Four every four/five years, at least. You think the ADs at UNC, Kansas, Duke would be satisfied with their men's BB coaches if they achieved White's metrics, given the history of those programs? Not a chance. You don't hire somebody to coach the men's BB program at UNC and say, "Gee, it would great if you could compete for a conference title every five years."

Also metrics can be misleading. Any astute AD should be able to evaulate a program and its coach in totality. Harper was arguable the worst coach in major-college basketball and yet she lasted 7 years. Why? Because she had success in her first two years---hit a couple of metrics by reaching the Elite Eight twice, and in doing that she earned herself an extension. But anyone with a sharp eye for athletics could have spotted issues with her early on. Listening to her, I never got a sense of someone who was commanding and had a sharp command of the game of basketball. Just the opposite, in fact. She seemed over her head. In both of the Elite Eight games her teams just psychologically collapsed in the second half, especially the loss to Maryland. The team started playing very tentatively, nervously, and just fell apart, and rather than Maryland win the game we just lost it. That was not a good sign, and we did much the same thing in the other Elite Eight game. And then in subsequent years the program just steadily deteriorated: She recruited well, but our play was often shockingly bad.

In soccer making the NCAA tournament is a definite metric. We've made in each of Kirt's two years as head coach--even won our first NCAA game this year--and and yet the soccer program has demonstrable regressed in his two years at the helm. He took almost the exact same team that had won 20 games the year before and was No. 6 in the country and won 11 games in his first year--and then 9 games last year. Coaches can cite achieving certain metrics and yet still be poor coaches--and any sharp AD will look at a lot of metrics--not just, say, making the Sweet 16 every four years or getting into the NCAA tourney--in determining whether has coach has got the right stuff or not. And then there is the subjective stuff: Some ADs have higher standards for programs than other AD's might. Some might settle for "satisfactory' as opposed to "good" or better. And an AD's personal relationship with coaches also plays into an evaluation. An AD who is personally simpatico with a coach is liable to give that coach more leeway than another coach with whom there is not so much personal compatibility.

One problem you see a lot in college athletics is ADs giving coaches the premature extension. A coach has a good year in year 2 or 3 and the AD is quick to give him or her a four/five year extension--and then in two/three years that good year looks like an abberation--as there hasn't been much subsequent success. We see it a lot in football, and we've seen it with our women's BB program.
 
#405
#405
turbovol said:
IMO those White metrics are pretty lame. First, if I were the AD at Tennessee I wouldn't, for the most part, use generic metrics
to analyze a program and its coach. I would look at the history of the program--what it has achieved (or not) in the past--and what
its status/situation was when the coach took over the program. Was it in good shape---had the program been successful in the years prior to
the new coach taking over or was it in rough shape--near the bottom of the conference. And then you assess the progress of the program in
the years since the coach grabbed the reins. Has the program improved--and if so, how much? Or has it regressed?

The women's basketball program here should have the most demanding metrics of any sport. The program was not in great shape when Harper took over--but it's got a tradition of 8 national titles to build on, second most in the history of the sport. Any good coach should be able to use that tradition to advantage. Harper, frankly, has not. She has shown herself to be a slightly better coach than Warlick, but she hasn't moved the needle much; she hasn't moved the program forward very much at all. Hell, we've got a tradition of 8 national titles and yet she and her staff are poor recruiters. That's a big negative. With our women's BB tradition, as someone above noted, finishing in the top 16 every four years shouldn't be good enough--that should be the floor. Compete for a conference championship? No: WIN a conference title every four years. Get into the Final Four every four/five years, at least. You think the ADs at UNC, Kansas, Duke would be satisfied with their men's BB coaches if they achieved White's metrics, given the history of those programs? Not a chance. You don't hire somebody to coach the men's BB program at UNC and say, "Gee, it would great if you could compete for a conference title every five years."

Also metrics can be misleading. Any astute AD should be able to evaulate a program and its coach in totality. Harper was arguable the worst coach in major-college basketball and yet she lasted 7 years. Why? Because she had success in her first two years---hit a couple of metrics by reaching the Elite Eight twice, and in doing that she earned herself an extension. But anyone with a sharp eye for athletics could have spotted issues with her early on. Listening to her, I never got a sense of someone who was commanding and had a sharp command of the game of basketball. Just the opposite, in fact. She seemed over her head. In both of the Elite Eight games her teams just psychologically collapsed in the second half, especially the loss to Maryland. The team started playing very tentatively, nervously, and just fell apart, and rather than Maryland win the game we just lost it. That was not a good sign, and we did much the same thing in the other Elite Eight game. And then in subsequent years the program just steadily deteriorated: She recruited well, but our play was often shockingly bad.

In soccer making the NCAA tournament is a definite metric. We've made in each of Kirt's two years as head coach--even won our first NCAA game this year--and and yet the soccer program has demonstrable regressed in his two years at the helm. He took almost the exact same team that had won 20 games the year before and was No. 6 in the country and won 11 games in his first year--and then 9 games last year. Coaches can cite achieving certain metrics and yet still be poor coaches--and any sharp AD will look at a lot of metrics--not just, say, making the Sweet 16 every four years or getting into the NCAA tourney--in determining whether has coach has got the right stuff or not. And then there is the subjective stuff: Some ADs have higher standards for programs than other AD's might. Some might settle for "satisfactory' as opposed to "good" or better. And an AD's personal relationship with coaches also plays into an evaluation. An AD who is personally simpatico with a coach is liable to give that coach more leeway than another coach with whom there is not so much personal compatibility.

One problem you see a lot in college athletics is ADs giving coaches the premature extension. A coach has a good year in year 2 or 3 and the AD is quick to give him or her a four/five year extension--and then in two/three years that good year looks like an abberation--as there hasn't been much subsequent success. We see it a lot in football, and we've seen it with our women's BB program.
Click to expand...
warlick?
 
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#406
#406
turbovol said:
IMO those White metrics are pretty lame. First, if I were the AD at Tennessee I wouldn't, for the most part, use generic metrics
to analyze a program and its coach. I would look at the history of the program--what it has achieved (or not) in the past--and what
its status/situation was when the coach took over the program. Was it in good shape---had the program been successful in the years prior to
the new coach taking over or was it in rough shape--near the bottom of the conference. And then you assess the progress of the program in
the years since the coach grabbed the reins. Has the program improved--and if so, how much? Or has it regressed?

The women's basketball program here should have the most demanding metrics of any sport. The program was not in great shape when Harper took over--but it's got a tradition of 8 national titles to build on, second most in the history of the sport. Any good coach should be able to use that tradition to advantage. Harper, frankly, has not. She has shown herself to be a slightly better coach than Warlick, but she hasn't moved the needle much; she hasn't moved the program forward very much at all. Hell, we've got a tradition of 8 national titles and yet she and her staff are poor recruiters. That's a big negative. With our women's BB tradition, as someone above noted, finishing in the top 16 every four years shouldn't be good enough--that should be the floor. Compete for a conference championship? No: WIN a conference title every four years. Get into the Final Four every four/five years, at least. You think the ADs at UNC, Kansas, Duke would be satisfied with their men's BB coaches if they achieved White's metrics, given the history of those programs? Not a chance. You don't hire somebody to coach the men's BB program at UNC and say, "Gee, it would great if you could compete for a conference title every five years."

Also metrics can be misleading. Any astute AD should be able to evaulate a program and its coach in totality. Harper was arguable the worst coach in major-college basketball and yet she lasted 7 years. Why? Because she had success in her first two years---hit a couple of metrics by reaching the Elite Eight twice, and in doing that she earned herself an extension. But anyone with a sharp eye for athletics could have spotted issues with her early on. Listening to her, I never got a sense of someone who was commanding and had a sharp command of the game of basketball. Just the opposite, in fact. She seemed over her head. In both of the Elite Eight games her teams just psychologically collapsed in the second half, especially the loss to Maryland. The team started playing very tentatively, nervously, and just fell apart, and rather than Maryland win the game we just lost it. That was not a good sign, and we did much the same thing in the other Elite Eight game. And then in subsequent years the program just steadily deteriorated: She recruited well, but our play was often shockingly bad.

In soccer making the NCAA tournament is a definite metric. We've made in each of Kirt's two years as head coach--even won our first NCAA game this year--and and yet the soccer program has demonstrable regressed in his two years at the helm. He took almost the exact same team that had won 20 games the year before and was No. 6 in the country and won 11 games in his first year--and then 9 games last year. Coaches can cite achieving certain metrics and yet still be poor coaches--and any sharp AD will look at a lot of metrics--not just, say, making the Sweet 16 every four years or getting into the NCAA tourney--in determining whether has coach has got the right stuff or not. And then there is the subjective stuff: Some ADs have higher standards for programs than other AD's might. Some might settle for "satisfactory' as opposed to "good" or better. And an AD's personal relationship with coaches also plays into an evaluation. An AD who is personally simpatico with a coach is liable to give that coach more leeway than another coach with whom there is not so much personal compatibility.

One problem you see a lot in college athletics is ADs giving coaches the premature extension. A coach has a good year in year 2 or 3 and the AD is quick to give him or her a four/five year extension--and then in two/three years that good year looks like an abberation--as there hasn't been much subsequent success. We see it a lot in football, and we've seen it with our women's BB program.
Click to expand...
You owe us an edit @turbovol … 😏
 
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#412
#412
Aladywhovolunteer said:
Just some random thoughts:

I purposely did not want to reply to a specific post but attempt to address several areas. AD White released the UTK five year strategic plan last year. That plan specifies metrics for each of UT's 20 sports. The plan sets as an objective that each sport will finish in the top 16 in the nation at least once every four years. The plan also states that each sport should compete for a SEC championship every five years.

www.knoxnews.com

Tennessee athletics has a 5-year plan under Danny White — and national titles are part of it

Tennessee set ambitious goals to increase revenue, boost season-ticket sales and win championships in a five-year strategic plan released Thursday.
www.knoxnews.com

Although, we all understand that finishing in the top sixteen in women's basketball should be a floor and not the ceiling; however, that is not the metric specified in the UTK Athletics Strategic Plan.

So, trying to separate fact from perception, Coach Harper finished in the top sixteen last year and she played South Carolina for the SEC tournament championship. Those accomplishments were in her fourth year. So she met the metric that governs her performace. Hence an extension to her contract and a salary increase.

Coach Harper's total compensation is over a million a year and her performace should definitely be scrutinized. She must recruit better and she needs to win the SEC regular season or tournament in the next two years. We all understand as does Coach Harper, when your compensation is over 7 figures you must produce. I'll be pulling for her as stability is a pillar of long term success.
Click to expand...

So going by Danny's White plan and if he fires Kellie after meeting playing in a sec championship every five last year. Liked the fire Kellie crowd want. Then he holding Kellie to unfair Standards compare to other sports. Opening Danny White to have changing plan to have uneven standards depending the sport. With Title nine non-compliance lawsuits possibles if Kellie would go there. May not keep her job but a judge or jury might award her damages in a lawsuit. Not sure Kellie would go that way her respect for Tennesse . But I wouldn't blame her. I think Danny White and Tennessee the people over Danny White will look at the Whole Season before jumping to any quick decision making. Since Pat and Hollie had a first round NCAA tournament run loss and if Tennessee under Kellie era wins one NCAA tournament game this year and gets the ax. Then Kellie would get fired without a first round loss holding Kellie to a higher Standard. Giving Pats Eight Championships gives Pat Summit Grace. But not Hollie on losing NCAA tournament First round games. That way I think Kellie for sure coach next year if they do not sink to Hollie's low bar and even Pats once low bar. Tennessee in Kellie era has never lost in the first round. Can Hollie or Pat Summit say the same. Still think Pat Summit is one of the best all time women's basketball coaches.
 
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#413
#413
mudcat1973 said:
So going by Danny's White plan and if he fires Kellie after meeting playing in a sec championship every five last year. Liked the fire Kellie crowd want. Then he holding Kellie to unfair Standards compare to other sports. Opening Danny White to have changing plan to have uneven standards depending the sport. With Title nine non-compliance lawsuits possibles if Kellie would go there. May not keep her job but a judge or jury might award her damages in a lawsuit. Not sure Kellie would go that way her respect for Tennesse . But I wouldn't blame her. I think Danny White and Tennessee the people over Danny White will look at the Whole Season before jumping to any quick decision making. Since Pat and Hollie had a first round NCAA tournament run loss and if Tennessee under Kellie era wins one NCAA tournament game this year and gets the ax. Then Kellie would get fired without a first round loss holding Kellie to a higher Standard. Giving Pats Eight Championships gives Pat Summit Grace. But not Hollie on losing NCAA tournament First round games. That way I think Kellie for sure coach next year if they do not sink to Hollie's low bar and even Pats once low bar. Tennessee in Kellie era has never lost in the first round. Can Hollie or Pat Summit say the same. Still think Pat Summit is one of the best all time women's basketball coaches.
Click to expand...
The unfair standards is getting excited about beating Liberty. She is compensated with a buyout if she can’t keep up with the athletic department. What you laid out is bare minimum to achieve at a University that plays at a higher standard.
 
#414
#414
Majors said:
The unfair standards is getting excited about beating Liberty. She is compensated with a buyout if she can’t keep up with the athletic department. What you laid out is bare minimum to achieve at a University that plays at a higher standard.
Click to expand...
Still say Kellie's not yet had a first round loss like Hollie or Pat with her right hand man Hollie. Kellie lowest season still better than the two before her fact are facts on that part. No way to spin it other wise.
 
#415
#415
Majors said:
The unfair standards is getting excited about beating Liberty. She is compensated with a buyout if she can’t keep up with the athletic department. What you laid out is bare minimum to achieve at a University that plays at a higher standard.
Click to expand...
I have to agree mudcat...the Lady Vol program is not minimal standards. I personally expect an E8 or better from ANY coach at TN within 5 years. This is Tennessee, not "Stonehill"
 
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#416
#416
mudcat1973 said:
Still say Kellie's not yet had a first round loss like Hollie or Pat with her right hand man Hollie. Kellie lowest season still better than the two before her fact are facts on that part. No way to spin it other wise.
Click to expand...
give this one up MC,,,that is not a LV mendosa line
Holly or Pat never had us ranked in the #88 spot either
the win last night vaulted us to #74,,,,sigh
 
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#417
#417
mudcat1973 said:
Still say Kellie's not yet had a first round loss like Hollie or Pat with her right hand man Hollie. Kellie lowest season still better than the two before her fact are facts on that part. No way to spin it other wise.
Click to expand...
As she shouldn’t, those two coaches didn’t have the luxury of the portal to infuse talent. Holly has the portal she is probably/good chance the coach today.
 
#420
#420
Majors said:
The unfair standards is getting excited about beating Liberty. She is compensated with a buyout if she can’t keep up with the athletic department. What you laid out is bare minimum to achieve at a University that plays at a higher standard.
Click to expand...
Ya'll are just delusional about "standards". Ya'll can pine away about good ole day standards and what they "should be". You can be mad as hell about what the realistic, on the ground standards currently are. But reality is reality. The LVs have not played to those bygone "standards" for over a decade.

It's fine to hold the golden days as a floating standard to someday try to return to. You can talk crap about anyone who "accepts" (as if we had any role to play at all) the "lowered" standards. But the road to getting back to your nostalgic once upon a time standards is one step at a time. Beating Liberty, esp looking really good doing it, was a step forward. Left foot, right foot, breath.

Also, just on a selfish note, it's a hell of alot more fun to be able to celebrate small victories (as opposed to crushing losses) than to shrug them off. Ya'll go ahead being above it all, but I'm feeling damn good today.
 
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#422
#422
Majors said:
I mean if we are tossing out hypotheticals …who knows who comes to Tennessee with an established portal. Holly could of gotten her Rickea to save her job.
Click to expand...
In 2019, Holly got a Rickea visit and Rickea said "No thanks". Then she said "Yes thanks" to Vic.

In 2022, Rickea said "No thanks" to Vic (and Kim) and "Yes thanks" to KJH. Then said "Yes thanks" a second time to KJH last spring. This is not a hypothetical.
 
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#423
#423
glv98 said:
Ya'll are just delusional about "standards". Ya'll can pine away about good ole day standards and what they "should be". You can be mad as hell about what the realistic, on the ground standards currently are. But reality is reality. The LVs have not played to those bygone "standards" for over a decade.

It's fine to hold the golden days as a floating standard to someday try to return to. You can talk crap about anyone who "accepts" (as if we had any role to play at all) the "lowered" standards. But the road to getting back to your nostalgic once upon a time standards is one step at a time. Beating Liberty, esp looking really good doing it, was a step forward. Left foot, right foot, breath.

Also, just on a selfish note, it's a hell of alot more fun to be able to celebrate small victories (as opposed to crushing losses) than to shrug them off. Ya'll go ahead being above it all, but I'm feeling damn good today.
Click to expand...
Who’s holding the glory years? Pretty sure my stance is in the now. My standards are if you’ve forgotten where you’re at, look to the sky and see the banners hanging. But agree, wins are better than losses. Getting excited about beating Liberty should be a reflection of how far we’ve fallen.
 
#424
#424
Majors said:
As she shouldn’t, those two coaches didn’t have the luxury of the portal to infuse talent. Holly has the portal she is probably/good chance the coach today.
Click to expand...
Going by Danny White Plan then the Football program should be getting a new coach if they do not get by Georgia and make it to the SEC championship game. Since Football is the most money making program and the most fan supported sport. In a five Of the current coaches time on rocky top. Since money is a key part of his plan. ThenDDanny White would be playing favorites from his old University job. The three most watch or followed sports at Tennessee are football then men's basketball then Women's basketball. Women's bar shouldn't higher than Men's basketball or football. If Danny White fire Kellie then He Should fire the current football coach for sure if they can not make SEC championship game appearance in year five. Or be backing his plan to fire Kellie and kept a friend.
 
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#425
#425
glv98 said:
In 2019, Holly got a Rickea visit and Rickea said "No thanks". Then she said "Yes thanks" to Vic.

In 2022, Rickea said "No thanks" to Vic (and Kim) and "Yes thanks" to KJH. Then said "Yes thanks" a second time to KJH last spring. This is not a hypothetical.
Click to expand...
Don’t want to speak for Vic or Kim or the Universities but let’s not glaze over the fact RJ was a toxic situation at the time. She quit on her previous program.
 
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