'16 TN LB Tim Hart (FORMER UT commit 6/26/15)

[Grand Vol]

Great post that makes my point.


Dobbs, Williams, mixon, mosely, and foreman were all committed elsewhere and we flipped them late in the cycle


100% the thing we should do later in the recruiting process instead of taking the early commits

Translation = "I have no idea how the recruiting process works and would prefer to take the leftovers from others schools. And in turn, continue mediocrity within the UT program."

Recruiting is like trying to hook up in a club. You go in early and scope the place out. You put out plenty of offers at the beginning of the night and see who commits. And as the night goes on, a better offer comes to fruition and you upgrade from that six to an eight because, well, it's an eight compared to a six. Is six going to be mad about it? Yeah, but you still got that eight in the end.

But in your world, you'd stick with the six because you're afraid of hurting feelings and they might run and tell their friends what a jerk you are by dumping them for a better offer.

And that right there is why you'll sit lonely at the bar when someone swoops in and upgrades their four to your six and it's a better offer on six's part. And you go home and cry in your pillow because you think life isn't fair and got outdone on the playing field.

 

[junder13]

Lol did you stop and think before posting any of this? You're invoking Che Guevara, who, regardless of what you think of his politics, was willing to murder those who deserted his cause with no hesitatio along with a holocaust survivor in order to condemn a college football coach asking a recruit to accept a blue shirt (which really does nothing but delay a scholarship about 2 months).

I admire his ideals but disagree completely with how he chose to practice those ideals and the political system he backed as a result. I would never side with a totalitarian regime, even if I thought it could be benevolent (which, by its nature, is improbable no matter the good intentions). It was a quote about justice. Che has no relevance with UT football and my including the quote was not an effort to connect the two -- an attempt you make perhaps in order to dismiss all that was said.

My point: dropping a recruit two weeks before signing day who can take no action in return besides using social media to air his grievances is wrong and an injustice (although, admittedly a small one in the grand scheme of things). It's easy to avoid: don't publicly accept commitments well ahead of signing day for players who still need to develop in order to earn their scholarship.

 

[butchna]

I admire his ideals but disagree completely with how he chose to practice those ideals and the political system he backed as a result. I would never side with a totalitarian regime, even if I thought it could be benevolent (which, by its nature, is improbable no matter the good intentions). It was a quote about justice. Che has no relevance with UT football and my including the quote was not an effort to connect the two -- an attempt you make perhaps in order to dismiss all that was said.

My point: dropping a recruit two weeks before signing day who can take no action in return besides using social media to air his grievances is wrong and an injustice (although, admittedly a small one in the grand scheme of things). It's easy to avoid: don't publicly accept commitments well ahead of signing day for players who still need to develop in order to earn their scholarship.

So what'd Hitler think about blueshirting?

 

[BruinVol]

Translation = "I have no idea how the recruiting process works and would prefer to take the leftovers from others schools. And in turn, continue mediocrity within the UT program."

Recruiting is like trying to hook up in a club. You go in early and scope the place out. You put out plenty of offers at the beginning of the night and see who commits. And as the night goes on, a better offer comes to fruition and you upgrade from that six to an eight because, well, it's an eight compared to a six. Is six going to be mad about it? Yeah, but you still got that eight in the end.

But in your world, you'd stick with the six because you're afraid of hurting feelings and they might run and tell their friends what a jerk you are by dumping them for a better offer.

And that right there is why you'll sit lonely at the bar when someone swoops in and upgrades their four to your six and it's a better offer on six's part. And you go home and cry in your pillow because you think life isn't fair and got outdone on the playing field.

Name the fringy guys we took very early in the process and things worked out well for us if they got to campus



Now name the fringy non elite recruit we flipped later in the process that turned our well for us once they got to campus.



Those list will show us exactly which method has been the most effective

 

[junder13]

Okay, at what point should coaches quit assessing a players potential? Four weeks? Eight? When does this change meet the moral test of right or wrong? No, it isn't ideal, but ideal ended sometime along the line and acknowledging it isn't the root of the problem.

There is no specific timeline and it is probably different for everyone. It certainly wouldn't be two weeks before NSD. Hart's senior year probably ended in late November/early December. That was 4-6 weeks ago. Our regular season ended around the same time. If he didn't develop his senior year (and it shouldn't take until the end of a player's season to realize) than drop him as soon as you come to that conclusion.

Or, to better answer your question, when would you find the timing acceptable if it were your child? I would be disappointed as a parent if it happened at any point but I would at least be more acceptant of it earlier in the process so that my child could take the appropriate time to make the right decision.

Plenty of VN posters talk about how this is one of the most important decisions an 18-year old makes. That's no different for the kid given two weeks to find a new home (Hart) or a few days to do so (Marques Ford).

I'm not saying Butch Jones is a terrible person for doing this. But it's ridiculous to keep doing this (he did it at Cinci quite a bit too, apparently) when it can be avoided. While other schools may do it too, there are plenty of successful programs that do not. It's especially ironic Jones does this considering the "culture" and "family atmosphere" he works so hard to create at UT. Doesn't make sense to risk it for commitments from recruits well ahead of NSD who are borderline prospects.

 

[Grand Vol]

Name the fringy guys we took very early in the process and things tinted out well for us if they got to campus

Now name the fringy non elite recruit we flipped later in the process that turned our well for us once they got to campus.

Those list will show us exactly which method has been the most effective

Or I'll just trust that CBJ and company know what they're doing and remind myself certain recruits decided to be very dramatic about rescinding their offer.

 

[junder13]

Translation = "I have no idea how the recruiting process works and would prefer to take the leftovers from others schools. And in turn, continue mediocrity within the UT program."

Recruiting is like trying to hook up in a club. You go in early and scope the place out. You put out plenty of offers at the beginning of the night and see who commits. And as the night goes on, a better offer comes to fruition and you upgrade from that six to an eight because, well, it's an eight compared to a six. Is six going to be mad about it? Yeah, but you still got that eight in the end.

But in your world, you'd stick with the six because you're afraid of hurting feelings and they might run and tell their friends what a jerk you are by dumping them for a better offer.

And that right there is why you'll sit lonely at the bar when someone swoops in and upgrades their four to your six and it's a better offer on six's part. And you go home and cry in your pillow because you think life isn't fair and got outdone on the playing field.

Your analogy of finding girls for a night at a club is clearly evidence that we should take your advice on how best to treat people.

 

[BruinVol]

Or I'll just trust that CBJ and company know what they're doing and remind myself certain recruits decided to be very dramatic about rescinding their offer.

I am just fine realizing that there is good and bad in recruiting with cbj. Mostly good for sure but yes there are mistakes made


I figured you wouldn't want to make that list since it will prove the taking of fringy kids early isn't working out for this staff while the flipping of fringy kids is indeed being an effective method.

 

[Big Orange Jeff]

Sure it does. If they wanted Richmond,I have no doubt SOMEONE committed was taking visits around that time. You need room, that's the guy who gets cut. You would never hear a peep from me about it.

Do that and kids would be mindful of those late visits for fun. If I need room I cut the ones taking visits. Not the ones who have been steadfast and solid for months.

It's not hard.

You asked how many players have been recruited over by Butch, even naming some, and said that we would still be in contention in '16 with those players.

I countered with a list of late flips/commits who are either stars or project to be stars, and suggested that we would not be in contention without them.

Your response was to wildly speculate that those late additions only took spots from kids still taking visits.

You should delete your account before you start to look foolish. Oops, too late.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I admire his ideals but disagree completely with how he chose to practice those ideals and the political system he backed as a result. I would never side with a totalitarian regime, even if I thought it could be benevolent (which, by its nature, is improbable no matter the good intentions). It was a quote about justice. Che has no relevance with UT football and my including the quote was not an effort to connect the two -- an attempt you make perhaps in order to dismiss all that was said.

My point: dropping a recruit two weeks before signing day who can take no action in return besides using social media to air his grievances is wrong and an injustice (although, admittedly a small one in the grand scheme of things). It's easy to avoid: don't publicly accept commitments well ahead of signing day for players who still need to develop in order to earn their scholarship.

And my point was that your thinking is disjointed and adding clever sounding quotes from three people whoo are completely irrelevant to the situation in every possible way isn't helping you make your case any better.


If you judge people, you have no time to love them.
-Mother Teresa

A man may imagine things that are false, but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding.
-Isaac Newton


“I am the flail of god. Had you not created great sins, god would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”
-Genghis Khan

 

[Grand Vol]

Your analogy of finding girls for a night at a club is clearly evidence that we should take your advice on how best to treat people.

Oh, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss my abilities. I'd be a dandy recruiter if I may say so.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

There is no specific timeline and it is probably different for everyone. It certainly wouldn't be two weeks before NSD. Hart's senior year probably ended in late November/early December. That was 4-6 weeks ago. Our regular season ended around the same time. If he didn't develop his senior year (and it shouldn't take until the end of a player's season to realize) than drop him as soon as you come to that conclusion.

Or, to better answer your question, when would you find the timing acceptable if it were your child? I would be disappointed as a parent if it happened at any point but I would at least be more acceptant of it earlier in the process so that my child could take the appropriate time to make the right decision.

Plenty of VN posters talk about how this is one of the most important decisions an 18-year old makes. That's no different for the kid given two weeks to find a new home (Hart) or a few days to do so (Marques Ford).

I'm not saying Butch Jones is a terrible person for doing this. But it's ridiculous to keep doing this (he did it at Cinci quite a bit too, apparently) when it can be avoided. While other schools may do it too, there are plenty of successful programs that do not. It's especially ironic Jones does this considering the "culture" and "family atmosphere" he works so hard to create at UT. Doesn't make sense to risk it for commitments from recruits well ahead of NSD who are borderline prospects.

Do you understand what a blueshirt is? Do you realize that he was still offered a scholarship? We have plenty of guys on campus right now who took the same deal Hart turned down and are doing just fine.

 

[junder13]

A more apt analogy would be one party asking the other to delay the wedding two months while they scrape together the cash for the wedding reception and the other side calling them a cheater and cancelling the entire wedding.

Sure it is, if you accept the "other side of the story": that UT was offering a blue shirt option because the coaches truly wanted Hart to be a contributing member of the team but unexpectedly ran out of room in the class (happens every year, by the way). How'd that work out for Jacquez Bruce and the TE from midstate last year? At least one of them has detoured to JUCO for two years in their life as a result (TE). And Bruce's story is a cautionary tale (supposedly stepping unceremoniously on a power T in a locker room, being body slammed as a result, and then being removed from the program). Justin Martin probably did worse than Bruce (arguing with the head coach in a team-wide meeting) before ever practicing. Yet, Martin was a scholarship player who almost certainly would (and did) contribute, and so all was quickly forgiven. There is obviously a double standard for blue shirts, and they do not experience the same treatment as scholarship players. Even if Hart did get a blue shirt offer (which is suspect), that isn't a good enough option to make the situation acceptable.

My point: the blue shirt offer is a façade for fans to believe as an acceptable option for recruits who are being replaced so that they can ignore the inconvenient reality of the situation, all in the name of fandom.

 

[junder13]

Do you understand what a blueshirt is? Do you realize that he was still offered a scholarship? We have plenty of guys on campus right now who took the same deal Hart turned down and are doing just fine.

Name them. Vincent Perry may turn into a success story. His injury kept that from playing out thus far. Who else? Just because it can happen, doesn't mean it should happen. I could win the lottery but it still wouldn't be wise to use all my income to buy tickets.

 

[junder13]

Oh, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss my abilities. I'd be a dandy recruiter if I may say so.

Haha, good for you. It's certainly your prerogative and I wish you well on these endeavors.

 

[overseasorange2]

With the way things are going maybe someone should start a "Who's next to DEcommit " thread...hmy::thud:

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Name the fringy guys we took very early in the process and things worked out well for us if they got to campus



Now name the fringy non elite recruit we flipped later in the process that turned our well for us once they got to campus.



Those list will show us exactly which method has been the most effective

Wolf committed early and was not highly rated at the time. Schools came after word got out, but the only other big time offers he had besides TN were Purdue and Michigan State. SEC teams started coming after him about a month after he committed (April 2013).

Coleman Thomas committed a month before Wolfe and wasn't highly rated either. Other offers from WVU, Marshall, Pitt, Wake Forrest, Maryland.

Creamer was an early commit with a low ranking as well. He's made no impact yet, but he has time.

Same can be said for Raulerson, though he was a summer commit.

Moseley was a September commit, but unless you count flipping him from Charlotte, he fits the criteria pretty well.

Hall was a summer commit who was not highly rated.

Stephen Griffin committed in March 2014, was not highly rated, and mostly had offers from mid-low tier ACC schools before we snagged him.



There are plenty of other early guys we snagged who ended up elsewhere as well, but it's not like the coaches have completely struck out with taking early commitments from guys who aren't highly rated.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Name them. Vincent Perry may turn into a success story. His injury kept that from playing out thus far. Who else? Just because it can happen, doesn't mean it should happen. I could win the lottery but it still wouldn't be wise to use all my income to buy tickets.

Jashon Robertson blueshirted, started as a true freshman, and was freshman All-SEC.

 

[Dust10]

I may have to put a recruit thread on ignore for the 1st time ever. You can tell it's getting close to NSD, and the usual posters who like to "discuss" what our coaches are doing are in full swing.

I just wanted to use that gif. I'm considering putting this thread on ignore also.

 

[Kristy*]

Reading this reminds me more of the Ford situation last year. It bothered me the most because he had suddenly become a hot commodity and was being recruited by major programs (including UF) late in the game and publicly told them all, "Thanks but no thanks", only to then get dropped like 3-4 days before NSD. He literally didn't even have a weekend to take an official visit. That was truly terrible. If that's what it takes to win (I don't think it is...no, I am confident it is not) than the sport is not worth following.

Ford was cut more than 2 weeks before NSD. He had two weekends for official visits and plenty of options to choose from. It's not always a pretty business, but he wasn't left high and dry.

 

[junder13]

And my point was that your thinking is disjointed and adding clever sounding quotes from three people whoo are completely irrelevant to the situation in every possible way isn't helping you make your case any better.


If you judge people, you have no time to love them.
-Mother Teresa

A man may imagine things that are false, but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding.
-Isaac Newton


“I am the flail of god. Had you not created great sins, god would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”
-Genghis Khan

Disjointed? I stated early on that I hated this situation for Hart but that I was more troubled by the masses excusing the situation as an inevitable part of returning the program to greatness than the situation itself. Nothing has changed.

I also stated early on that in the grand scheme of life this wasn't a big deal but that it was an injustice nonetheless and shouldn't be dismissed as less (even the average UT fan just admitting it would help the situation). Nothing has changed.

The three quotes were relevant to the post but if you don't agree with my argument than of course you'll not view the quotes favorably. Oh well. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. But for as many vol fans as there are that are quick to dismiss this, there's even more who find it unacceptable (if you include rival fans, those who have no team allegiance whatsoever, and those who read about the situation as a casual, removed observer). Only compromised avid fans would dismiss this as acceptable.

Ultimately it's the responsibility of those in power over the process to implement rules to avoid this type of unacceptable behavior, because college coaches striving to keep their multi-million dollar contracts are obviously not up to task of maintaining an acceptable standard of honesty in recruiting (and, no, just because recruits themselves can be dishonest and fickle doesn't change the responsibility of coaches who represent their university to act irresponsibly). Hopefully the system will be cleaned up (but I will not be holding my breath for it).

 

[junder13]

Jashon Robertson blueshirted, started as a true freshman, and was freshman All-SEC.

Good point. I will gladly concede that one. He was truly a success story in the case for blueshirting.

 

[InVOLuntary]

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Sure it is, if you accept the "other side of the story": that UT was offering a blue shirt option because the coaches truly wanted Hart to be a contributing member of the team but unexpectedly ran out of room in the class (happens every year, by the way). How'd that work out for Jacquez Bruce and the TE from midstate last year? At least one of them has detoured to JUCO for two years in their life as a result (TE). And Bruce's story is a cautionary tale (supposedly stepping unceremoniously on a power T in a locker room, being body slammed as a result, and then being removed from the program). Justin Martin probably did worse than Bruce (arguing with the head coach in a team-wide meeting) before ever practicing. Yet, Martin was a scholarship player who almost certainly would (and did) contribute, and so all was quickly forgiven. There is obviously a double standard for blue shirts, and they do not experience the same treatment as scholarship players. Even if Hart did get a blue shirt offer (which is suspect), that isn't a good enough option to make the situation acceptable.

My point: the blue shirt offer is a façade for fans to believe as an acceptable option for recruits who are being replaced so that they can ignore the inconvenient reality of the situation, all in the name of fandom.

1. We don't know exactly what happened with Bruce. Stories ranged from him being punched for stepping on the T to him taking a swing at a team leader who told him to respect the T.

2. All that TE had to do was not get busted smoking pot until after classes started and he had a scholarship.

3. Those two are only cautionary tales to kids who plan on toeing the line between what is and isn't acceptable for a scholarship athlete to begin with.

4. If Hart doesn't want to take a blueshirt because it means he can't go wild the second he gets on campus, a blueshirt is all he deserves (not saying this is the case necessarily).

5. If this kid was being replaced, as you're implying, the staff would've just done him like Marques Ford and told him we don't have room for him. That is not the case. A scholarship was on the table for him.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Good point. I will gladly concede that one. He was truly a success story in the case for blueshirting.

Joe Young hasn't done too badly for himself either.