A few facts for the mopes on here

#101
#101
One thing I don't understand. South Alabama nearly upsets us with no 4* talent at all. I don't even know how many 3* they have. They get excuses made for why they almost beat us. Then the exact same scenario with UT vs. UGA except we do have some talent and there's no way we can hang?
 
#102
#102
BruiserVol said:
One thing I don't understand. South Alabama nearly upsets us with no 4* talent at all. I don't even know how many 3* they have. They get excuses made for why they almost beat us. Then the exact same scenario with UT vs. UGA except we do have some talent and there's no way we can hang?
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#103
#103
volfan411 said:
Just curious but how do you define an elite coach? I think there is only a couple of elite coaches in the country and they are not going to leave their current situation to rebuild a program.

I would define a coach by his body of work and when Jones was hired his body of work says he wins every where he has been.
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Elite coaches can recruit AND coach at a high level.

You are absolutely right that there are only a few and they are ultimately proven by their body of work. Saban is elite. As much as I despise him, Meyer is an elite coach though I would question him as an elite talent evaluator. He's won best with someone else's recruited talent. Oregon has an elite system that seems to generate "great" coaches. Stanford's coach looks pretty good right now. Carroll was elite in CFB.

Petrino could be in the right situation. I personally think Freeze could be emerging as an elite coach. Sumlin looks good so far. Spurrier is on the down slope IMO but was definitely elite in his prime.

UT needs a coach who does not always need to have the most talent.... nor luck... to win big games. I hope that's Jones. But ask yourself, is UT really going to make a habit of overwhelming UF, UGA, LSU, or Bama with talent?
 
#105
#105
sjt18 said:
Elite coaches can recruit AND coach at a high level.

You are absolutely right that there are only a few and they are ultimately proven by their body of work. Saban is elite. As much as I despise him, Meyer is an elite coach though I would question him as an elite talent evaluator. He's won best with someone else's recruited talent. Oregon has an elite system that seems to generate "great" coaches. Stanford's coach looks pretty good right now. Carroll was elite in CFB.

Petrino could be in the right situation. I personally think Freeze could be emerging as an elite coach. Sumlin looks good so far. Spurrier is on the down slope IMO but was definitely elite in his prime.

UT needs a coach who does not always need to have the most talent.... nor luck... to win big games. I hope that's Jones. But ask yourself, is UT really going to make a habit of overwhelming UF, UGA, LSU, or Bama with talent?
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I totally agree with all that you just said and I said from day one UT needs a coach who can do more with less not a coach who does less with more. I agree that UT will not ever again be the most talented team year in and year out due to recruiting base. I also think that is why it was a good move to get a coach who runs an offense that is different from the SEC powerhouses which will open up the recruitment of players other schools are not interested in. I

I am refusing to criticize Jones and nor do I think it is fair to criticize him this season due to the situation he stepped into and hope some of the concerns I have are just this staff adjusting to playing in the SEC.
 
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#106
#106
irrespective of stars, 5 freshmen got their first ever college TD's this year.. think about that for a second
 
#107
#107
PEPPERJAX said:
The bottom line is we gave Doolander three years, so CBJ deserves three as well.
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That's the problem. No coach should be guaranteed any certain period of time. Evaluate their performance continuously and demand accountability for ongoing improvement. Either show a certain amount of improvement as you go or we'll find somebody who can. That's how it should be.

As for Butch, at least with recruiting, he has shown a significant level of improvement that justifies his continued employment. He has not shown any improvement with game management and development of players however. That must start changing by the middle of next year or it'll be time to get rid of him and move on to the next guy. He doesn't have to win a championship, just show improvement.
 
#108
#108
InVOLuntary said:
I agree a win is a win. My point goes to all the apologist on the board who make excuses. I realize the talent is down but the coaching while hasn't been terrible it's been less than spectacular as well.
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what are your opinions on the coaching? i.e. specific examples. not just the coaches suck
 
#109
#109
UrbanCryer said:
what are your opinions on the coaching? i.e. specific examples. not just the coaches suck
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Well I mentioned several examples before and frankly I don't have time to go over it again. But to summarize, I am not a Butch hater. I am just a little skeptical from a few things he (his staff) have done. We need a coach that can get more out of his players than the perceived talent, overachieve, and I have not witnessed that.

Edit: Also, I have never said the coaches suck. That's the problem with many on this board. You say one negative thing or question the coaches even the slightest and you hate them, think they suck and think they should be fired immediately.
 
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#110
#110
landscapingvol said:
Since 2010 Tennessee has signed 40 4 star players and 1 5 star players, a pretty good stat. However, of those 41 players only 24 remain on the roster and of those 24 there are zero 5 star players.

For comparison's sake, since 2010 UGA has signed 43 4 star players and 5 5 star players, again very good. However, and most telling, 42 remain on the roster including 4 5 star players. That is a difference of 18 players and if you think that doesn't make a difference you are greatly mistaken.

Just to add more fuel to the fire, since 2010 Alabama has signed 50 4 star players and 11 5 star players, exceptionally good. And again, most telling, 50 remain on the roster and of the 11 that no longer remain on the roster 7 were first round draft picks. That is a difference of 26 players.

Tom Landry couldn't win with those kind of odds stacked against him, continue with the Butch Jones bashing.
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How many 4 stars did Vanderbilt have when James Franklin took over? How many did Ole Miss have when Freeze took over?

I haven't seen anyone say we should be competing for the national championship this year, so comparing us to Alabama is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

It seems like most people just want us to look like we're fighting hard, making good adjustments, improving, and staying competitive. We don't want to see a passing game that is utterly inept, and continues to be that way and drags the rest of the team down game after game. We don't want to struggle to beat an opponent that is barely an FBS program. I don't think that's asking all that much with this talent.
 
#111
#111
UrbanCryer said:
what are your opinions on the coaching? i.e. specific examples. not just the coaches suck
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Also, you mentioned in another thread that you were on board with this staff until they lost one they shouldn't. I asked you in that thread, of the rest of the teams on the schedule which ones should they not lose too?. Not trying to be a smart a$$ just curious where you would set the bar.
 
#112
#112
There's no convincing the stubborn morons once they have their mind made up.

Just wait until after October, they'll be out in full force.
 
#113
#113
landscapingvol said:
Since 2010 Tennessee has signed 40 4 star players and 1 5 star players, a pretty good stat. However, of those 41 players only 24 remain on the roster and of those 24 there are zero 5 star players.

For comparison's sake, since 2010 UGA has signed 43 4 star players and 5 5 star players, again very good. However, and most telling, 42 remain on the roster including 4 5 star players. That is a difference of 18 players and if you think that doesn't make a difference you are greatly mistaken.

Just to add more fuel to the fire, since 2010 Alabama has signed 50 4 star players and 11 5 star players, exceptionally good. And again, most telling, 50 remain on the roster and of the 11 that no longer remain on the roster 7 were first round draft picks. That is a difference of 26 players.

Tom Landry couldn't win with those kind of odds stacked against him, continue with the Butch Jones bashing.
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Here's a fact for the CBJ flag-waving homers:

South Alabama has never signed a 3 star, and only a couple of 2 stars ever. They can't even conceive of signing a 4 or 5 star player. And yet the played the Vols almost to a stalemate last Saturday.

Oregon has signed only 29 4/5 * players during the OP's timeframe. Don't know how many they have left, but may well have far fewer than the 24 he says we have left.

Worse, during the same time frame, Vandy has signed 3 4* players, and obviously no 5* players.

No one expects Butch Jones to turn the Vols into a national championship contender overnight. But to give him excuse after excuse and pretend he has no talent to work with when it comes to beating the lower rung SEC teams is bogus. There is no excuse for how poorly they played last Saturday, and there's no excuse for being humiliated by anyone, apart from perhaps Alabama and maybe Georgia.

If he's half the messiah his staunchest supporters think he is, we'll be competitive in almost every remaining game.
 
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#114
#114
landscapingvol said:
Since 2010 Tennessee has signed 40 4 star players and 1 5 star players, a pretty good stat. However, of those 41 players only 24 remain on the roster and of those 24 there are zero 5 star players.

For comparison's sake, since 2010 UGA has signed 43 4 star players and 5 5 star players, again very good. However, and most telling, 42 remain on the roster including 4 5 star players. That is a difference of 18 players and if you think that doesn't make a difference you are greatly mistaken.

Just to add more fuel to the fire, since 2010 Alabama has signed 50 4 star players and 11 5 star players, exceptionally good. And again, most telling, 50 remain on the roster and of the 11 that no longer remain on the roster 7 were first round draft picks. That is a difference of 26 players.

Tom Landry couldn't win with those kind of odds stacked against him, continue with the Butch Jones bashing.
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Just so we are clear, Justin Worley was a 4 star recruit!
 
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#115
#115
ETNVol said:
Here's a fact for the CBJ flag-waving homers:

South Alabama has never signed a 3 star, and only a couple of 2 stars ever. They can't even conceive of signing a 4 or 5 star player. And yet the played the Vols almost to a stalemate last Saturday.

Oregon has signed only 29 4/5 * players during the OP's timeframe. Don't know how many they have left, but may well have far fewer than the 24 he says we have left.

Worse, during the same time frame, Vandy has signed 3 4* players, and obviously no 5* players.

No one expects Butch Jones to turn the Vols into a national championship contender overnight. But to give him excuse after excuse and pretend he has no talent to work with when it comes to beating the lower rung SEC teams is bogus. There is no excuse for how poorly they played last Saturday, and there's no excuse for being humiliated by anyone, apart from perhaps Alabama and maybe Georgia.

If he's half the messiah his staunchest supporters think he is, we'll be competitive in almost every remaining game.
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The absolute only chance we have yo be competitive with even the lower tier SEC teams is to can Worley. Give the freshmen a chance to play behind this o line we now have. From what I see Butch has done a good job with this team. It simply does not have a QB.
 
#116
#116
87Vol said:
That's the problem. No coach should be guaranteed any certain period of time. Evaluate their performance continuously and demand accountability for ongoing improvement. Either show a certain amount of improvement as you go or we'll find somebody who can. That's how it should be.

As for Butch, at least with recruiting, he has shown a significant level of improvement that justifies his continued employment. He has not shown any improvement with game management and development of players however. That must start changing by the middle of next year or it'll be time to get rid of him and move on to the next guy. He doesn't have to win a championship, just show improvement.
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Respectively, I disagree. Butch has shown a great improvement in not only Defense but also our kicking game. Ie pokardy. Now the o looks much worse than they actually are because we don't have a QB. Now if Jones says Worley is our best shot, I believe him. However, I realize that really gives us no shot at all. This one position has and will continue to plague us this season. He makes the whole team look much worse throwing late passes and low. We don't have a passing game at all. Thus leaving our opponent the luxury of concentrating on stopping the run and leaving this young but talented defense on the field far too much.
 
#117
#117
sjt18 said:
Oh, btw, the coaching was not good vs Oregon and coaching decisions weighed heavily into the margin if not outcome of the UF game.

I went ballistic after Oregon because of the underperformance... but it happens.

I respect Jones for making the decision he did at UF though it did not work out and is STILL his responsibility and loss.

But there comes a time when the "right" coach will make the "right" decisions and get a BETTER than expected outcome.

If you think UT will ever recruit enough talent for an "average" coach like Richt, Miles, Muschamp, etc to win championships then you are going to be disappointed. UT needs an ELITE coach who routinely beats teams with equal or greater talent.

That of course assumes you want to see UT win championships and not just to see them return to the point where they're considered "contenders" and get nice bowl games around NYD.
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I have to say, I had a few disagreements with sjt18 in the offseason, but he's pretty much spot on these days.
 
#118
#118
ETNVol said:
Here's a fact for the CBJ flag-waving homers:

South Alabama has never signed a 3 star, and only a couple of 2 stars ever. They can't even conceive of signing a 4 or 5 star player. And yet the played the Vols almost to a stalemate last Saturday.

Oregon has signed only 29 4/5 * players during the OP's timeframe. Don't know how many they have left, but may well have far fewer than the 24 he says we have left.

Worse, during the same time frame, Vandy has signed 3 4* players, and obviously no 5* players.

No one expects Butch Jones to turn the Vols into a national championship contender overnight. But to give him excuse after excuse and pretend he has no talent to work with when it comes to beating the lower rung SEC teams is bogus. There is no excuse for how poorly they played last Saturday, and there's no excuse for being humiliated by anyone, apart from perhaps Alabama and maybe Georgia.

If he's half the messiah his staunchest supporters think he is, we'll be competitive in almost every remaining game.
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You are correct in that USA has never signed a 4 star but they have had several to transfer in from Alabama. As it was stated last night they have had 34 players to transfer in that do not show up in recruiting rankings. The average star rating for USA was 1.88 and for UT was 2.41 prior to this years signing class. What I find interesting is that Vandy's average star rating was 2.1 so James Franklin is obviously doing more with less.

Please do not take this as an excuse for us winning the game but just a correction to your statement.
 
#121
#121
InVOLuntary said:
How many 4 and five star players does South Alabama have?
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They had 5 5* turnovers to fill in the talent gap. Apparently, most of the fb expertise shown in most of these posts are gained though emotional rants and talking points picked up from espn, adams, and all the rest of the bomb throwers.
 
#122
#122
GBO-Bartlett said:
They had 5 5* turnovers to fill in the talent gap. Apparently, most of the fb expertise shown in most of these posts are gained though emotional rants and talking points picked up from espn, adams, and all the rest of the bomb throwers.
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The OP was stating how bad the talent was on Tennessee. I think it's fair to see what the talent was on the opposing team if you're going to use the low level of talent as a reason for the poor play. :hi:
 
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#123
#123
InVOLuntary said:
The OP was stating how bad the talent was on Tennessee. I think it's fair to see what the talent was on the opposing team if you're going to use the low level of talent as a reason for the poor play. :hi:
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this.

it's so funny how people resort to complaining about emotional rants and lack of "football expertise" when someone asks a legitimate question that exposes a fault in the original proposition.
 
#125
#125
oregonvol said:
this.

it's so funny how people resort to complaining about emotional rants and lack of "football expertise" when someone asks a legitimate question that exposes a fault in the original proposition.
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Serious question. What are your qualifications? It is a msg board. You really have a sick attitude and why waste your time. Do you think that your posts are not emotionally based? I know some of mine are. You don't play well with others, do you. You Spin everything.
 
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