An American Muslim discusses 9/11 and the mosque

[emainvol]

do we know how tall the building are around there? i don't. mosques generally aren't small buildings and this one surely doesn't seem to be tiny.

I don't want to make that call yet because I haven't seen the plans. I can see both sides though. I pretty much take hat's stand on it. If they can afford the property and get the proper permissions, have at it.

 

[T-TownVol]

do we know how tall the building are around there? i don't. mosques generally aren't small buildings and this one surely doesn't seem to be tiny.

The architects drawing that I saw has the Mosque at 15 stories. All the ther buildings on that block are less than 10.
I do not know about the block that is in between.

 

[KB5252]

I don't want to make that call yet because I haven't seen the plans. I can see both sides though. I pretty much take hat's stand on it. If they can afford the property and get the proper permissions, have at it.

I am with you, yet at the same time they as well as others supporting it should expect the backlash that comes from it. America at its finest.

 

[droski]

I am with you, yet at the same time they as well as others supporting it should expect the backlash that comes from it. America at its finest.

exactly. They have the right to try to build it. i don't deny that.

 

[T-TownVol]

There is on more tall building on that block. I question the style of the building also. If they just want to "blend in" with the community, why this show place.

 

[lawgator1]

If America launched a strike against a target, for an example let's say it was Riyadh, S.A. and it killed thousands of civilians. Years later after the rubble was cleared and the pieces of bodies found were identified it was decided that a Christian group wanted to build a Church/Community center. Do you think those Muslims who don't understand the objection would begin to understand?

I don't want to deny anyone the right to worship as they wish, that isn't really what the objection is about. I wouldn't want that hypothetical church in Saudia Arabia to be built either, it doesn't matter if it were being done with the purist of intentions, it just sends the wrong message. I simply don't understand how the individual in the story can't understand this.

Borrowing (and paraphrasing) from Jon Stewart:

"Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We here in America want the same level of religious freedom they have in Saudi Arabia."


Do you not see the contradiction within your argument?

 

[kptvol]

There have been so many posts here that claim that Islam's goal is to undermine the U.S., to destroy it. Here you have a guy who is Muslim and he takes an American flag with him to Afghanistan and shows it to Muslims there as he teaches them how to read. His brother, also a Muslim, served in the Army post-9/11 and has shrapnel in his leg from a wound he received in service of our country.

I just think its time that the ignorant claim that we are fighting all of Islam, as opposed to a very small radical component who have manipulated and bastardized Islam, be exposed for the falsity it is.

Meanwhile, some guy at a Tea Party yelled at a black guy. All Republicans are therefore racists.

 

[droski]

Borrowing (and paraphrasing) from Jon Stewart:

"Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We here in America want the same level of religious freedom they have in Saudi Arabia."


Do you not see the contradiction within your argument?

how is saying we don't want a mosque built next to the world trade center reducing religious freedoms?

 

[lawgator1]

Meanwhile, some guy at a Tea Party yelled at a black guy. All Republicans are therefore racists.

We were having a fairly intellecutal debate and you had to be a complete tool and just throw that irrelevancy in there, didn't you?

It wasn't even very funny.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Is quoting Jon Stewart intellectual? Or is that leaning more to the "fairly intellectual" side?

 

[lawgator1]

how is saying we don't want a mosque built next to the world trade center reducing religious freedoms?

Poster said that if we had to attack some place over there and tried to build a church tow blocks away the government there would forbid it.

Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, if they were in power, would find a way to block the mosque here.

The point is, holding up the Saudi (or other Muslim government) as the comparator for what our government ought to do is pretty weak.

 

[kev20]

how anyone can stand to watch either Stewart or Colbert is beyond me. those have to be 2 of the most boring shows on the air.

 

[hndog609]

Borrowing (and paraphrasing) from Jon Stewart:

"Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We here in America want the same level of religious freedom they have in Saudi Arabia."


Do you not see the contradiction within your argument?

Seriously LG, at what point do your realize this is not about "religious freedom"? KB5252's post you quoted expressly stated that the practice of being a Muslim isn't the issue.

 

[kev20]

Poster said that if we had to attack some place over there and tried to build a church tow blocks away the government there would forbid it.

Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, if they were in power, would find a way to block the mosque here.

The point is, holding up the Saudi (or other Muslim government) as the comparator for what our government ought to do is pretty weak.

actually agree here. apples and oranges.

 

[KB5252]

Borrowing (and paraphrasing) from Jon Stewart:

"Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We here in America want the same level of religious freedom they have in Saudi Arabia."


Do you not see the contradiction within your argument?

There is no contradiction in my argument what so ever. I never said they shouldn't be allowed to build it, I said that just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

In fact I further explained that in my scenario I wouldn't want a church built there either for the simple fact that it would send a message counter to the intent I wanted to convey.

In short, there is no contradiction to my argument.

 

[KB5252]

Poster said that if we had to attack some place over there and tried to build a church tow blocks away the government there would forbid it.

Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, if they were in power, would find a way to block the mosque here.

The point is, holding up the Saudi (or other Muslim government) as the comparator for what our government ought to do is pretty weak.

Although that is true, that is not what I said and not part of my argument.

Edit for part two in bold: Please read my post again, the Saudi government was never a comparator. My argument was an "all things being equal" type argument and I expressed my opposition to a church being built over a sight associated with violence by Christians (at least in the eyes of Muslims) because it sends the wrong message.

 

[T-TownVol]

We were having a fairly intellecutal debate and you had to be a complete tool and just throw that irrelevancy in there, didn't you?

No....you are involved.

 

[droski]

Poster said that if we had to attack some place over there and tried to build a church tow blocks away the government there would forbid it.

Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, if they were in power, would find a way to block the mosque here.

The point is, holding up the Saudi (or other Muslim government) as the comparator for what our government ought to do is pretty weak.

i doubt that japan would be excited about an american church next to its hiroshima memorial 10 years after said event. hardly think this is just a saudi reaction.

 

[T-TownVol]

Seriously LG, at what point do your realize this is not about "religious freedom"? KB5252's post you quoted expressly stated that the practice of being a Muslim isn't the issue.

That does not fit his agenda.

 

[golfballs]

It's going next to Dakota Roadhouse?? Haha

 

[VolGal423]

It's going next to Dakota Roadhouse?? Haha

Yea. Pretty weird huh?
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[lawgator1]

Anyone on here claiming that this is not about religious intolerance is a fool, a liar, or both.

The far right has made it part of the midterm and 2012 campaigns to paint Muslims with as broad a brush as possible. Heck, there are websites and institutions whose sole goal is to convince the feeble minded in this country that Islam itself is to blame for 9/11.

This mosque debate -- for some -- is about permitting versus judgment. But for a lot of right wing hatemongers, it is an opportunity to once again paint Obama as either a Muslim or a terrorist sympathizer, to define the dispute as Chirstian versus Muslim, or to simply grab on and ride this for all its political worth.

It is a pathetic display of grandstanding about a largely fabricated issue. But because it is resonating with the lowest common denominator amongst us, it has become the case de celeb amongst the far right hate machine.

 

[droski]

so in your opinion it sends no message to muslim extremists to build a mosque on the site of a terrorist attack? i

 

[KB5252]

Anyone on here claiming that this is not about religious intolerance is a fool, a liar, or both.

That isn't what it's about for the vast majority of the American public, it is about a scar that still isn't healed and for many Americans it is equal to pouring salt in open wounds.

The far right has made it part of the midterm and 2012 campaigns to paint Muslims with as broad a brush as possible. Heck, there are websites and institutions whose sole goal is to convince the feeble minded in this country that Islam itself is to blame for 9/11.

There are just as many left wing hate sites intended to stir their feeble minded followers LG. You see every issue as an indictment of the right because of a few loons the same way many of those far right loons see all Muslims based on the actions of the minority. Are you that different from them?

This mosque debate -- for some -- is about permitting versus judgment. But for a lot of right wing hatemongers, it is an opportunity to once again paint Obama as either a Muslim or a terrorist sympathizer, to define the dispute as Chirstian versus Muslim, or to simply grab on and ride this for all its political worth.

The left has seized on this for all the political points they can score as well, it is the nature of American politics and both sides are playing the game here LG.

It is a pathetic display of grandstanding about a largely fabricated issue. But because it is resonating with the lowest common denominator amongst us, it has become the case de celeb amongst the far right hate machine.

All sides are grandstanding, the left, the right and the Muslims proposing the mosque. It resonates with just about all Americans who watched the events happen on 9-11 and most people who object do so because they believe it is in poor taste, not because they question others right's to worship freely.

 

[lawgator1]

so in your opinion it sends no message to muslim extremists to build a mosque on the site of a terrorist attack? i

There's a difference between sending a message and getting one.

If some terrorist camp over there thinks that the building of that mosque has some historical significance as a marker for their success, it makes no difference. That is, they aren't terrorists because that gets built. And, that they take some perverse delight in it is really of no consequence other than that it bothers some people here -- even though it makes no difference in practical reality.

On the other hand, if the mosque is viewed as a place or a cause that forces us to confront the lack of mutual understanding and respect then there is at least a chance that somewhere down the line it, and places like it, will allow generations of both Muslims and American to decide that their antagonism is something ginned up by people who want to take advantage of it.

Osama Bin Laden is a politician. He uses Islam to further a political agenda, and sadly he and others like him have had some success. The ultimate way to combat that -- assuming we cannot kill all of them and that has never worked -- is to beat him at his own game.

On the flip side, people like Gingrich, Limbaugh, and Hannity are entertainers who are trying to make a buck off of the tension and dispute. They are opportunists, just like Bin Laden.

Until people learn to think for themselves and don't get caught up in all the nonsense, we will always have these problems. Best way to handle it, even if you don't like it, is to not let it bother you.

Honestly, day to day, what difference does it make that there is a mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero? Me, I'd rather work to prevent another one than bash people over the head claiming that ten years after the fact a mosque a couple of block away is such an affront.