An American Muslim discusses 9/11 and the mosque

[droski]

If some terrorist camp over there thinks that the building of that mosque has some historical significance as a marker for their success, it makes no difference. That is, they aren't terrorists because that gets built. And, that they take some perverse delight in it is really of no consequence other than that it bothers some people here -- even though it makes no difference in practical reality.

On the other hand, if the mosque is viewed as a place or a cause that forces us to confront the lack of mutual understanding and respect then there is at least a chance that somewhere down the line it, and places like it, will allow generations of both Muslims and American to decide that their antagonism is something ginned up by people who want to take advantage of it.
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i'd say a mosque rising out of the world trade center is the type of symbol that could rally terrorists for generations. you seriously underestimate that symbolism.

please explain why a mosque built there would ever help mutual understanding and respect?

 

[BeecherVol]

There's a difference between sending a message and getting one.

If some terrorist camp over there thinks that the building of that mosque has some historical significance as a marker for their success, it makes no difference. That is, they aren't terrorists because that gets built. And, that they take some perverse delight in it is really of no consequence other than that it bothers some people here -- even though it makes no difference in practical reality.

On the other hand, if the mosque is viewed as a place or a cause that forces us to confront the lack of mutual understanding and respect then there is at least a chance that somewhere down the line it, and places like it, will allow generations of both Muslims and American to decide that their antagonism is something ginned up by people who want to take advantage of it.

Osama Bin Laden is a politician. He uses Islam to further a political agenda, and sadly he and others like him have had some success. The ultimate way to combat that -- assuming we cannot kill all of them and that has never worked -- is to beat him at his own game.

On the flip side, people like Gingrich, Limbaugh, and Hannity are entertainers who are trying to make a buck off of the tension and dispute. They are opportunists, just like Bin Laden.

Until people learn to think for themselves and don't get caught up in all the nonsense, we will always have these problems. Best way to handle it, even if you don't like it, is to not let it bother you.

Honestly, day to day, what difference does it make that there is a mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero? Me, I'd rather work to prevent another one than bash people over the head claiming that ten years after the fact a mosque a couple of block away is such an affront.

Would it matter if they pitched in for the rent?

 

[lawgator1]

i'd say a mosque rising out of the world trade center is the type of symbol that could rally terrorists for generations. you seriously underestimate that symbolism.

please explain why a mosque built there would ever help mutual understanding and respect?

1) Are you really so naive as to think that the building of a mosque is going to "rally" more terrorists?

2) Got to start somewhere. Seems to me that this mosque is going to get watched more closely than any other in the history of the country. If there is a real suspicion it has linkage to anything untoward or illegitimate, it is going to have the authorities all over it.

3) Bottom line: AS long as people make 9/11 about Islam instead of terrosim by Islamic extremists, then we aren't going to get anywhere.

As I say, however, it is pretty apparent that a whole lot of people -- both over there and here -- have a vested interest in perpetuating the conflation of the two.

 

[droski]

1) Are you really so naive as to think that the building of a mosque is going to "rally" more terrorists?

2) Got to start somewhere. Seems to me that this mosque is going to get watched more closely than any other in the history of the country. If there is a real suspicion it has linkage to anything untoward or illegitimate, it is going to have the authorities all over it.

3) Bottom line: AS long as people make 9/11 about Islam instead of terrosim by Islamic extremists, then we aren't going to get anywhere.

As I say, however, it is pretty apparent that a whole lot of people -- both over there and here -- have a vested interest in perpetuating the conflation of the two.

1) you are really arguing that i'm overplaying what building a mosque in the place of the center of american capitalism means to religious fanatics? you think they wont care in the slightest? you can't be serious.

2) relavance? it still exists. if they want to promote tolerance why not pay for a museum rather than a mosque?

3) why do you think they are building it there? because it's the only space available? it's only allowed to be about 9/11 for the people building the mosque, but can't be about it for those against it?

 

[hndog609]

1)3) Bottom line: AS long as people make 9/11 about Islam instead of terrosim by Islamic extremists, then we aren't going to get anywhere.
QUOTE]

Right, and building this mosque there is a wonderful example of trying to move in the right direction and help the cause.

 

[BeecherVol]

1) you are really arguing that i'm overplaying what building a mosque in the place of the center of american capitalism means to religious fanatics? you can't be serious.

2) relavance? it still exists. if they want to promote tolerance why not pay for a museum rather than a mosque?

3) why do you think they are building it there? because it's the only space available? it's only allowed to be about 9/11 for the people building the mosque, but can't be about it for those against it?

Excellent point. Not sure it will be addressed.

 

[CSpindizzy]

1) Are you really so naive as to think that the building of a mosque is going to "rally" more terrorists?

As I say, however, it is pretty apparent that a whole lot of people -- both over there and here -- have a vested interest in perpetuating the conflation of the two.

Seriously? Are you that naive to miss out on the value of a mosque being built in the city preached as the symbol of evil and decadence in the West? Having a mosque built in the heart of the infidel in the minds of these people is priceless. Having a mosque built that uses their own laws against them and puts a symbol of Islam right near the epicenter does more to rally a base than almost anything.

If you missed out on the value of that with propaganda among terrorists you have no clue.

 

[droski]

hell not just building it in NY city, but building it from the rubble of the greatest attack on american capitalism in history!

 

[vols4sure]

2) Got to start somewhere. Seems to me that this mosque is going to get watched more closely than any other in the history of the country. If there is a real suspicion it has linkage to anything untoward or illegitimate, it is going to have the authorities all over it.

"Imam Faisel Abdul Rauf, has refused to disclose the sources of funding for the mosque and once suggested in a television interview that U.S. policies contributed to the 9/11 attacks."

I have suspicion about where the funding came from. Why is this aspect not being investigated if it is going to get watched so closely?

Instead, Pelosi wants to spend taxpayer money to investigate where the funding to the opposition is coming from.

 

[jaybird_1981]

LG continues to show he has no clue what this war is about to them.

 

[CSpindizzy]

LG continues to show he has no clue what this war is about to them.

He loves to use quotes and actions of anyone on the right talking about how things are spun to emotionally drive people to support a cause but yet thinks anything on the left or any other fringe is immune to doing the same. Regardless of intent of the actual project leaders, this does more to rally a cause bent on terror, killing, and destruction than most of what they've already done. I might even argue it ranks up close to the actual 9/11 events as far as propaganda points.

 

[droski]

"Imam Faisel Abdul Rauf, has refused to disclose the sources of funding for the mosque and once suggested in a television interview that U.S. policies contributed to the 9/11 attacks."

I have suspicion about where the funding came from. Why is this aspect not being investigated if it is going to get watched so closely?

Instead, Pelosi wants to spend taxpayer money to investigate where the funding to the opposition is coming from.

many of the richest muslims in the world tend to live in backwater countries with oil like saudi arabia and iran. it's no coincidence that these same people are pro terrorism and anti american.

 

[MontereyVol]

1) Are you really so naive as to think that the building of a mosque is going to "rally" more terrorists?

2) Got to start somewhere. Seems to me that this mosque is going to get watched more closely than any other in the history of the country. If there is a real suspicion it has linkage to anything untoward or illegitimate, it is going to have the authorities all over it.

3) Bottom line: AS long as people make 9/11 about Islam instead of terrosim by Islamic extremists, then we aren't going to get anywhere.

As I say, however, it is pretty apparent that a whole lot of people -- both over there and here -- have a vested interest in perpetuating the conflation of the two.

Wow, LG I use to respect your opinion but you really don't understand radical Muslims at all do you?

As for the others you should know, being a lawyer for the police, that they have an extremely hard time doing any kind of entry into a mosque due to its religious doctrine of not allowing non-believers inside. Hell, our military won't enter a mosque that terrorists were chased into in the middle of a war zone.

 

[lawgator1]

1) you are really arguing that i'm overplaying what building a mosque in the place of the center of american capitalism means to religious fanatics? you think they wont care in the slightest? you can't be serious.

The ones that will care ARE ALREADY A LOST CAUSE. Otherwise, it bothers people in this country only because we feel like other people who already hate us will derive some sense of satisfaction out of it that we don't want them to have.

I don't feel that trading away more freedom is worth denying those bastards some fleeting joy over it when it makes no difference and they are going to hate us anyway.

The solution is to find and kill those who are committed to that cause and then to prevent others from joining it by demonstrating that we are good and rational folks. Getting upset about this mosque has no effect on the former and can only undermine the latter.

And for no purpose whatsoever.



2) relavance? it still exists. if they want to promote tolerance why not pay for a museum rather than a mosque?

3) why do you think they are building it there? because it's the only space available? it's only allowed to be about 9/11 for the people building the mosque, but can't be about it for those against it?

Clearly, you are buying into the argument that the purpose of the mosque is to be a collective thumbing of Islam's nose at America.

I just don't see the logic in that. And even if there were something to it, it seems to me that the last thing we should be doing is letting it bother us.

Horrible approach: a) discuss ways to prevent exercise of religious freedom, even indirect ways; b) counter building of religious site with burning of Quoran; c) alow this to distract us from effective goals in dealing with both terrorists and better relations between us and future generations of Islam.

Good approach: a) Separate out hate for the terrorists from suspicion of the religion, as a whole; b) to whatever extent some radical, somewhere, wants to go "nanny nanny boo boo" at us over it getting built there, recognize he is already a terrorist or terrorist-in-waiting and that building of that mosque will have no effect on that whatsoever; c) expose those in our country who are using this for their own political purposes and mark them as the traitors to freedom and intelllectual honesty that they are.

 

[droski]

so what do you think the point of the mosque is? obviously if it's to encourage tolerance it ain't working. why go ahead with it?

and i disagree that this mosque only would rally the already lost causes. it's too striking of a symbol. it would be the greatest pro terrorism symbol in the world. it could easily convince someone on the fence that allah clearly agrees with terrorism. we aren't talking about rational religious people here. it's a society that believes strongly and acts in response to symbols, signs and omens.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

There's a difference between sending a message and getting one.

If some terrorist camp over there thinks that the building of that mosque has some historical significance as a marker for their success, it makes no difference.

This coming from the guy whose gator fans got all bent out of shape because some Dawgs decided to celebrate in their endzone "as a marker of their success". Sometimes you are just laughable.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Clearly, you are buying into the argument that the purpose of the mosque is to be a collective thumbing of Islam's nose at America.

And clearly you have ignored every comment relating to this. Intent aside....I'm not sure where saying that STILL brings you back to the "purpose" argument. The intent and the result are two different things. In law, this exists as well. I can have the best intentions in the world but if my efforts does more to hurt my side, argument, well being, etc. what is the point? If this mosque rallies a few thousands more to cross on over to strap bombs on their chest, does the "good will" mean anything?

 

[CSpindizzy]

so what do you think the point of the mosque is? obviously if it's to encourage tolerance it ain't working. why go ahead with it?

and i disagree that this mosque only would rally the already lost causes. it's too striking of a symbol. it would be the greatest pro terrorism symbol in the world.

And we have found common ground. The purpose is already negated before it even gets off the ground. And the notion of a mosque "in the heart of the beast" does far more to win more to radical Islam than to win over 'tolerance, peace, good will, and understanding'.

 

[KentheOrange]

I just wonder where the outrage began. I mean, did they make a big deal of this publicly? That is, those who wish to open this particular establishment. I think I missed a step on this.

I believe the outrage began on 9/11.

 

[droski]

And we have found common ground. The purpose is already negated before it even gets off the ground. And the notion of a mosque "in the heart of the beast" does far more to win more to radical Islam than to win over 'tolerance, peace, good will, and understanding'.

exactly. if you want to promote peace, good will, whatever build a museum in times square dedicated to the positive parts of islam and christianity or whatever. it's clear that's not the reason they want to build it. and there's an awful lot of money behind this and forgive me for being sceptical that a society that hates americans has this many rich people willing to spend money so we like them more.

 

[kptvol]

We were having a fairly intellecutal debate and you had to be a complete tool and just throw that irrelevancy in there, didn't you?

It wasn't even very funny.

You spelled intellectual wrong, you stupid *******. That piece of information is completely relevant anytime you attempt to speculate on what a small sample represents for the larger picture.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I think a gesture of good will would be that $100 million invested in a monument or the proposed buildings they have for ground zero. A nice financial contribution to the families would work as well. Scholarships for the children of those who died....etc. etc.

 

[volinbham]

Anyone on here claiming that this is not about religious intolerance is a fool, a liar, or both.

The far right has made it part of the midterm and 2012 campaigns to paint Muslims with as broad a brush as possible. Heck, there are websites and institutions whose sole goal is to convince the feeble minded in this country that Islam itself is to blame for 9/11.

This mosque debate -- for some -- is about permitting versus judgment. But for a lot of right wing hatemongers, it is an opportunity to once again paint Obama as either a Muslim or a terrorist sympathizer, to define the dispute as Chirstian versus Muslim, or to simply grab on and ride this for all its political worth.

It is a pathetic display of grandstanding about a largely fabricated issue. But because it is resonating with the lowest common denominator amongst us, it has become the case de celeb amongst the far right hate machine.

Anyone else notice that LG's rants against hatemongering, fear tactics and bigotry are always filled with hatemongering, fear tactics and bigotry?

Classic.

 

[CSpindizzy]

"I hate hate"

 

[KB5252]

Anyone else notice that LG's rants against hatemongering, fear tactics and bigotry are always filled with hatemongering, fear tactics and bigotry?

Classic.

Yes, but it doesn't count as long as, or the left is doing it. At least that's the impression I get from his posts, what other explanation could there possibly be?