An American Muslim discusses 9/11 and the mosque

I am just wondering how far away from Ground Zero is far enough. I mean, it's not across the street, it's three or four blocks away.



Serious question though, how much farther away?


Here's a figure showing proximity and damage from the 9/11 attack. You can see that the site for the Mosque actually was heavily damaged from the attack. I believe they found one of the plane's landing gear lodged in the building.

It doesn't really answer your question but I think it does show why proximity does matter for some in this situation.

There is also some concern that the proposed mosque (picture somewhere in this thread) resembles one of the WTC towers. Probably a coincidence but once again it's more of a symbolism issue than anything else. It is supposed to serve as a symbol of unity and tolerance but I don't doubt for a second that it will be an insulting/even taunting symbol to others.
 

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Rima Fakih, Muslim Miss USA, Questions 'Ground Zero Mosque' Location

Rima Fakih, the first Muslim Miss USA, has come out against the location of the so-called "Ground Zero mosque."

Fakih, whose faith caused a bit of an uproar when she was first crowned, told Inside Edition on Monday that while she concurs with President Obama on the need for the protection of religious freedom, she also feels that the placement of the Park51 center is a little too close for comfort.
 
gs called her a terrorist

If you are talking about Miss USA then you are lying through your teeth, as usual.

What I said was that she had a close realative (an uncle I think) who is a member of Hizbbollah which is still listed by our islam friendly state department as a terrorist organization.

BTW, are your lips still sealed on my question of; "are you happy now that Obimama has gotten sharia law enfranchised into the Kenyan system of jurisprudence," one would think so.

pelosimosque.jpg


donkey.jpg
 
LG, all you have done is prove my point... again. In the OP you quote a young liberal, Americanized Muslim. IOW's, someone who the fundamentalist Muslims would denounce, possibly hate, and possibly even kill if they had the chance. You aren't proving that the leadership or most powerful people in the Islamic world are peaceful or do not want to overthrow the US.

The more fundamental a Christian is the less likely they are to use violence in the name of Christianity. The more fundamental a Muslim is the more likely they are to use or approve of violence in the name of Islam.

Because of the religious tolerance enshrined in our Constitution because it was DEMANDED by Christian fundamentalists... Muslims have a right to build this mosque there if they own the property and do so in compliance with the law. That is how CHRISTIANS treat people who disagree with them.

IIRC, under sharia law it is illegal to build a church or rebuild one that has been destroyed. Conversion from Islam to Christianity is a capital crime. Rape of a Christian girl automatically makes her a Muslim and if she tries to go back to Christianity she is guilty of a capital crime.

The Islamic idea of "tolerance" is when they decide not to kill non-converts who agree to live as "dhimmi"- second class citizens with few absolute rights.

It isn't us who need to educate ourselves. I know and have known Muslims who are decent, law abiding people. None of us have pretended those folks don't exist... but you continuously deny that the most powerful elements in the Islamic world are very hostile toward the West and non-muslim world generally.
 
LG, all you have done is prove my point... again. In the OP you quote a young liberal, Americanized Muslim. IOW's, someone who the fundamentalist Muslims would denounce, possibly hate, and possibly even kill if they had the chance. You aren't proving that the leadership or most powerful people in the Islamic world are peaceful or do not want to overthrow the US.

The more fundamental a Christian is the less likely they are to use violence in the name of Christianity. The more fundamental a Muslim is the more likely they are to use or approve of violence in the name of Islam.

Because of the religious tolerance enshrined in our Constitution because it was DEMANDED by Christian fundamentalists... Muslims have a right to build this mosque there if they own the property and do so in compliance with the law. That is how CHRISTIANS treat people who disagree with them.

IIRC, under sharia law it is illegal to build a church or rebuild one that has been destroyed. Conversion from Islam to Christianity is a capital crime. Rape of a Christian girl automatically makes her a Muslim and if she tries to go back to Christianity she is guilty of a capital crime.

The Islamic idea of "tolerance" is when they decide not to kill non-converts who agree to live as "dhimmi"- second class citizens with few absolute rights.

It isn't us who need to educate ourselves. I know and have known Muslims who are decent, law abiding people. None of us have pretended those folks don't exist... but you continuously deny that the most powerful elements in the Islamic world are very hostile toward the West and non-muslim world generally.

Great post.
 
ignorant, racist, bigot, rightwing nutjob, extremist, radical and who knows what else will be inserted in there.

Maybe we should get out the old kids books called Mad Libs. We can come up with creative stories and let LG unleash his favorite words into blanks to come up with more potential post responses.
 
LG, all you have done is prove my point... again. In the OP you quote a young liberal, Americanized Muslim. IOW's, someone who the fundamentalist Muslims would denounce, possibly hate, and possibly even kill if they had the chance. You aren't proving that the leadership or most powerful people in the Islamic world are peaceful or do not want to overthrow the US.

The more fundamental a Christian is the less likely they are to use violence in the name of Christianity. The more fundamental a Muslim is the more likely they are to use or approve of violence in the name of Islam.

Because of the religious tolerance enshrined in our Constitution because it was DEMANDED by Christian fundamentalists... Muslims have a right to build this mosque there if they own the property and do so in compliance with the law. That is how CHRISTIANS treat people who disagree with them.

IIRC, under sharia law it is illegal to build a church or rebuild one that has been destroyed. Conversion from Islam to Christianity is a capital crime. Rape of a Christian girl automatically makes her a Muslim and if she tries to go back to Christianity she is guilty of a capital crime.

The Islamic idea of "tolerance" is when they decide not to kill non-converts who agree to live as "dhimmi"- second class citizens with few absolute rights.

It isn't us who need to educate ourselves. I know and have known Muslims who are decent, law abiding people. None of us have pretended those folks don't exist... but you continuously deny that the most powerful elements in the Islamic world are very hostile toward the West and non-muslim world generally.


Again, it is mind boggling how stupid people can be when they argue that the presence of religious INtolerance in Muslim countries justifies religious intolerance here.

Just so unbelievably retarded.
 
Chill dude, it was a joke

My question about Obambi, Kenya and islamic sharia law still stands dude.




Great post.

sjt knows his business all right!! :good!:

American are woefully unaware of what islam is all about, particularly the sharia law aspect.

Louisiana At Leading Edge In Fight Against Shariah | The Hayride

Polling done by Family Security Group back in 2008 indicated that only 3% of Americans were even aware of the term Shariah—and an even smaller percentage actually knew what it was.
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Shariah is a code which is best known for being the law of the land in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan, three nations with some of the most horrible human rights records in the world. It is no coincidence that these three nations are also heavily involved in Jihadist terrorism.

Shariah can be accurately described as reactionary, deliberately vague and, in its implementation, barbaric.

No matter where you stand on religious, cultural, legal or economic matters.

If you hate all religions.

If you're just skeptical.

If you are anywhere between a casual to a devout follower of any religion other than islam.

You are an infidel and worthy of rape, death of subjegation to slavehood or dhimmi status where you are second class to even the lowest of muslims and must pay an exorbiant special tax imposed on all not muslims.

I was talking not so long ago with a Christian Arab Palestinian living in Bethlehem and he MAY NOT even display a cross in his window to signify that he is a Christian for fear his windows will be broken, his house broken into and his family beaten or even murdered and his house burned to the ground. He cannot allow his children to go anywhere without being accompanied by adult men for fear they will be beaten, raped, murdered or abducted.

The purpose of Shariah is submission. Shariah seeks to establish that Allah is the divine lawgiver and that no other law may properly exist but Allah’s law.

Bush was aware of this and after naming the proposed overthrow of the talibanis in Afghanistan 'infinite justice' he was informed by islamic leaders that this cannot be so because allah is the remitter of all justice so the Afghan operation was renamed 'enduring freedom.'

BTW both Iraq and Afghanistan incorporate sharia law into their constitutions as being the final authority on all legal matters.

1 2 3 4 what are we fighting for?

What did we fight for in the Balkans, certainly not what the founders of this country intended.

One can easily see how the islamic law of sharia using 'taqiyya' (deception) has been used to blind a whole nation.


Here is a very important point: Shariah is very different from other forms of religious law, such as Jewish halacha law or Catholic canon law in that neither of the latter is meant to apply to non-Jews or non-Catholics respectively. In contrast, much of Shariah is explicitly meant to apply to non-Muslims.

Shariah requires that it be dominant and it is an outright crime under Shariah for a Muslim to adhere to a secular law system that does not explicitly state and make clear that Shariah is the “highest law of the land”.

Anyone and everyone should read the whole post, if there is one thing that is THE MOST IMPORTANT issue in America today it is that we educate ourselves on what we are up against.

Passing out candy bars isn't going to get the job done.
 
Again, it is mind boggling how stupid people can be when they argue that the presence of religious INtolerance in Muslim countries justifies religious intolerance here.

Just so unbelievably retarded.

It is the building and location STUPID!
No one is stopping their religion!
 
There's a difference between sending a message and getting one.

If some terrorist camp over there thinks that the building of that mosque has some historical significance as a marker for their success, it makes no difference. That is, they aren't terrorists because that gets built. And, that they take some perverse delight in it is really of no consequence other than that it bothers some people here -- even though it makes no difference in practical reality.

On the other hand, if the mosque is viewed as a place or a cause that forces us to confront the lack of mutual understanding and respect then there is at least a chance that somewhere down the line it, and places like it, will allow generations of both Muslims and American to decide that their antagonism is something ginned up by people who want to take advantage of it.

Osama Bin Laden is a politician. He uses Islam to further a political agenda, and sadly he and others like him have had some success. The ultimate way to combat that -- assuming we cannot kill all of them and that has never worked -- is to beat him at his own game.

On the flip side, people like Gingrich, Limbaugh, and Hannity are entertainers who are trying to make a buck off of the tension and dispute. They are opportunists, just like Bin Laden.

Until people learn to think for themselves and don't get caught up in all the nonsense, we will always have these problems. Best way to handle it, even if you don't like it, is to not let it bother you.

Honestly, day to day, what difference does it make that there is a mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero? Me, I'd rather work to prevent another one than bash people over the head claiming that ten years after the fact a mosque a couple of block away is such an affront.

It "matters" to the extreme Muslims. You are one dumb arse loser on this one.
 
Again, it is mind boggling how stupid people can be when they argue that the presence of religious INtolerance in Muslim countries justifies religious intolerance here.

Just so unbelievably retarded.

No. What is retarded is that you either can't or won't read but INSIST on reading into the posts of others.

Please show where I have been intolerant whatsoever. I am simply telling you the bald faced truth. I have not advocated making Islam illegal or legislating any sort of bias against the benign practice of any religion. When Islam and Muslims become political as Islam in its most pure Koranic version demands... then there's a problem.

What is really, really retarded is that you choke at the notion of American exceptionalism. We ARE superior to countries ruled by the Islamic theocratic ideal... ALL OF THEM. We are superior precisely because we TOLERATE groups that we don't always understand, often disagree with, and sometimes fear and often with good reason.

What we absolutely DON'T want to see is sharia or any notion of it practiced here. But some of the honor killers who are being protected by the Muslim community in the US suggests there ARE Muslims here who DO want that already.

There are communities in England where sharia already functions. Is that what you want?
 
Again, it is mind boggling how stupid people can be when they argue that the presence of religious INtolerance in Muslim countries justifies religious intolerance here.

Just so unbelievably retarded.

We must consider your post with some impact since everyone agrees you are the ultimate authority on retardation on this board. :dance2:
 
Those of you opposed to the mosque because you think it is the Muslim community thumbing its nose at us, or that believe that Islam's goal is to undo America, need to take a few minutes, open your minds, and read this.

You won't.

But you should.


Can be found at http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2010/08/19/patriotic_muslim_american_on_the_mosque_mess/index.html





I am a lifelong resident of Middletown, N.J., the town that lost more victims per capita on 9/11 than anyplace in the state, and the second hardest hit city after New York. Almost 50 of our neighbors died that day, in a town of 60,000. Most of those who died worked at Cantor Fitzgerald. Although I was only 18, I was an enlisted medic with the New Jersey National Guard on that day, and I wound up on many Homeland Security missions in my four-year stint after the attack. My older brother commissioned as a U.S. Army officer after Sept. 11, and was awarded a Purple Heart during his service in Iraq. To this day he has shrapnel lodged in his body from the IED that blew up his convoy.

My brother and I are also Muslim Americans, born in the United States, of Pakistani heritage.

In our town, the wounds of 9/11 haven't healed. Just this last July 4, I sat with a longtime friend as he cried about a mutual friend who died that day. With tears in his eyes, he thanked me and my brother for our service to our country. Now that we have returned home to New Jersey, my brother and I are sad to see that some of our fellow Americans would like to deprive us of our rights to pray for our country and our loved ones at the proposed Muslim Cultural Center near ground zero. Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich even said that building a mosque in that area would be analogous to having a Nazi sign next to the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Maybe Gingrich should visit Middletown and get a reality check. I do not remember anyone chasing me out of a funeral for one of the 9/11 victims because they were offended by my being a Muslim. In Middletown, we grieved the people we lost together, as a community.

Our town is close-knit, and many of my childhood friends still reside here. I attended public school in Middletown from kindergarten through high school. I went to grammar school birthday parties, Little League games, bar mitzvahs, proms and now weddings with the same large yet close group of friends. My first cousins are Jewish, as is my older brother's fiancée. Another first cousin's last name is Plumb and he is half Irish. My older brother graduated from the local Catholic high school. One of his classmates died on 9/11. He'd been born on the 4th of July; in fact, he's the same person our friend wept remembering on this past Independence Day. A close high school friend's father also died in the attacks. I see her from time to time, and she is one of the most remarkable people I know, carrying on with her life the way she does. I still see the pain of family members and those who lost loved ones, or who escaped from the vicinity of the World Trade Center.
In the direct aftermath of the attacks, friends and neighbors checked up on my family, not because they were suspicious, but because they wanted to make sure we were OK. When I am introduced at family or Christmas parties I never hear a bigoted remark. You could always tell how proud my friends and their parents were of me, "This is Osman, he is in the service."

In Middletown, I belong. But beyond Middletown, it seems as though some people can't even conceive of my existence: a Muslim American who is a patriot, who served his country, who cherishes its ideals. I am also aware of the low public perception of the United States in many Muslim countries, including Pakistan. After I graduated from law school, I decided to work as an American, building a school on the Pakistani side of Kashmir, an area where terrorists roam freely. As I got on the plane to fly to Islamabad, my mother told me, "Show them what an American is." Carrying an American flag in my backpack and traveling dangerous roads and mountains, I helped establish a school for Afghan war refugees.

I remember teaching a young girl how to read; she was 11 years old and had never been to school before. Pulling out the American flag from my backpack, I wanted to make sure she knew Middletown, and America, meant her no harm. Later, Pakistan’s national broadcast channel came to interview me. During the interview I told them that American aid was coming to build more of these schools, thanks to the Kerry-Lugar aid bill, passed just prior to my arrival in the area, which funded school construction in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Schools like this keep our troops safe in Afghanistan by limiting the recruiting ability of the Taliban and al-Qaida in Pakistan, as local people begin to see that Americans have a humanitarian mission, they are not just invaders.

I see the impulse that drove me to work as an American in Kashmir in the desire to build the Park51 Community Center. Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf and his partners want to combat Muslim extremism, terrorism and anti-Americanism, showing that America’s tradition of religious tolerance extends to Muslims, and that Muslims can live in peace with neighbors of every religion, as well. Imam Rauf, a Sufi, is no "extremist"; he advised the State Department under the past Bush administration, and worked with the FBI after 9/11. Every religion has its own group of fanatics, and extremism is not confined to Islam. New York Rep. Peter King, a Park51 opponent, not too long ago overtly supported efforts to raise money to buy weapons for the Irish Republican Army, which was considered a terrorist organization. We can take strange sections out of every religion's holy books, if we want to paint the worst picture of that particular group.

I believe Rauf's goal with Park51 is in harmony with the goals of our nation's founders. George Washington himself once wrote to a Jewish congregation in Rhode Island, reassuring them of our nation's religious tolerance. "For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support." I flew halfway around the world to promote that great vision, and my brother came close to giving his life to protect it.

George Washington also reminded us to guard against the "imposters of pretended patriotism." Mr. Gingrich and Mrs. Palin: Please do not confuse the public and slander all Muslim-Americans as being responsible for 9/11. Please don't tell my shrapnel-scarred war hero brother that he is no different than the 9/11 hijackers. Sadly, you represent the very spirit of intolerance you attack in others.


No one's denying him the right to pray at a Mosque...
He's been praying somewhere for the last 9 years, so he should just stay there...
 
I am just wondering how far away from Ground Zero is far enough. I mean, it's not across the street, it's three or four blocks away.

That is not an invitation for you idiotic racist douchebags to tell me that 4000 miles away in X is far enough, I get it, you don't like Muslims.

Serious question though, how much farther away?

Actually it has been reported that it is 2 blocks away and that the landing gear from one of the planes that struck the twin towers actually struck and damaged said building. too close i would say not to question motive.
 
Borrowing (and paraphrasing) from Jon Stewart:

"Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We here in America want the same level of religious freedom they have in Saudi Arabia."


Do you not see the contradiction within your argument?

You just lost me when you quoted the COMEDIAN John Stewart.

He plays politics until someone puts him in his place and he laughs and says im just a guy on the same channel as Eric cartman. And if your wondering i do watch him quite a bit and Colbert too, but i also watch and follow the people he lampoons an i have seen dozens of times how he skews/edits their remarks to make his point.

It is truly SAD that a great amount of people get their news from this COMEDIAN and only this COMEDIAN. He is funny sometimes though, i will concede that.
 

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