Cbj

[Grey_pilgrim]

There is no question about that. Dooley had a great offensive staff and they would have scored a lot more and been more competitive with the exact same players we had this last year. And of course if he could have kept Wilcox we would not even be talking about any of this because Doley would still be coaching here (would have gone 9-3 or even 10-2 his last year with that offense if Wilcox was still coaching defense).

Yeah keep on believing that. It's easy to argue in hypotheticals.

 

[TGVol]

Yeah keep on believing that. It's easy to argue in hypotheticals.

What's so hard to believe? Wilcox defense improved a lot from year 1 to year 2 and was in top 30 by that point. Why is it hard to believe if they just stayed the same and offense did what they did during Dooley's last year that 10-2 would not have happened? That seems like the most logical outcome given how things were progressing on both offense and defense (and given how close our losses were in spite of Sunseri defense).

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

What's so hard to believe? Wilcox defense improved a lot from year 1 to year 2 and was in top 30 by that point. Why is it hard to believe if they just stayed the same and offense did what they did during Dooley's last year that 10-2 would not have happened? That seems like the most logical outcome given how things were progressing on both offense and defense (and given how close our losses were in spite of Sunseri defense).

Because anyone with half a brain knew that after losing Bray, Hunter, Rivera, CP, and Rogers there would be at least some drop off this year. Everyone knew that regardless of who the coach was this year there would be some growing pains on offense.

 

[MustafaRasta]

Dooley defenders....Sheer idiocy.

Not even an average coach would be fool enough to take a top 30 4-3 defense and switch 2 years into his tenure into a 3-4. What else do you need to prove he was far below average?

 

[TGVol]

Because anyone with half a brain knew that after losing Bray, Hunter, Rivera, CP, and Rogers there would be at least some drop off this year. Everyone knew that regardless of who the coach was this year there would be some growing pains on offense.

Anyone with half a brain knows that if you recruit players for pro style offense and then bring in third rate staff that insists on running spread with those same players that its not likely going to work as well as if the original (great) staff that recruited them was still around. We saw a proof of that this year where we got more yards running sideways than up the field - pathetic.

 

[oregonvol]

There is no question about that. Dooley had a great offensive staff and they would have scored a lot more and been more competitive with the exact same players we had this last year. And of course if he could have kept Wilcox we would not even be talking about any of this because Doley would still be coaching here (would have gone 9-3 or even 10-2 his last year with that offense if Wilcox was still coaching defense).

Dude, if Wlcox was the difference between 9-3 vs. 5-7, then Wilcox should have been the head coach.

 

[TGVol]

Dude, if Wlcox was the difference between 9-3 vs. 5-7, then Wilcox should have been the head coach.

No - because if Dooley did not build that offense the Wilcox defense alone would not have been enough to go 9-3. The offense was still the key accomplishment of the Dooley era (that gets overlooked due to overall W-L record which at the end of the day is the only think people end up focusing on - which his why Butch can't go 5-7 again or he will be out as well).
But returning to Wilcox - he will be a good HC soon - certainly a couple of good years as DC at USC will position him nicely for that.

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

No - because if Dooley did not build that offense the Wilcox defense alone would not have been enough to go 9-3. The offense was still the key accomplishment of the Dooley era (that gets overlooked due to overall W-L record which at the end of the day is the only think people end up focusing on - which his why Butch can't go 5-7 again or he will be out as well).
But returning to Wilcox - he will be a good HC soon - certainly a couple of good years as DC at USC will position him nicely for that.

If your trying to argue about how great of an offensive coach Dooley was shouldn't Jim Chaney get most of the credit? After all he was here longer than Dooley and he helped recruit the offensive players for both Kiffin and Dooley and he would know how to get the most out of them.

 

[TGVol]

If your trying to argue about how great of an offensive coach Dooley was shouldn't Jim Chaney get most of the credit? After all he was here longer than Dooley and he helped recruit the offensive players for both Kiffin and Dooley and he would know how to get the most out of them.

Chaney should get a ton of credit and Dooley should get a ton of credit for keeping him after Kiffin left. Not sure how you split that credit up between Chaney and Dooley since Dooley seemed to be the key to get Hunter, D Rogers, and CP. But that argument could then be made for any HC - they are always only going to be as good as their assistants although every HC kind of has an area of X's and O's they are better at (due to their days and assistants). For example, how much credit for Bama defenses goes to Saban vs Kirby Smart? Who knows for sure? Dooley many times said that he used to spend all his time in offensive meetings so he certainly at least helped set the tone for what he wanted offense to look like. As a matter of fact only very late in his tenure he started attending defensive meetings to try to salvage the Sunseri disaster (obviously was not successful there).

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

Anyone with half a brain knows that if you recruit players for pro style offense and then bring in third rate staff that insists on running spread with those same players that its not likely going to work as well as if the original (great) staff that recruited them was still around.

You really think Dooley and co was a great staff?

 

[TGVol]

You really think Dooley and co was a great staff?

As far as offense goes no doubt it was a great staff - much better than what we have now. Unfortunately defense with Sal was bad enough to more than offset that. If only Wilcox stayed one more year ...

 

[TGVol]

So Jones gets a strike for playing with players the Dooley recruited? That makes perfect sense.

It does because that's how the real world works. Just like Dooley got a strike for his year one loses even though he obviously did not play with players he recruited. That is actually true for year 2 in most cases as well. So good coaches have no choice than to make do with what they find when they arrive - better ones can make those adjustments - weaker ones will cry that they need 4 years to implement their system, etc (but in the end of the day they usually don't get the benefit of the doubt after couple of losing seasons and usually get canned - at least in programs that have expectations like Tennessee that's the case).

 

[tm3]

Butch's minimum goal was to make a bowl game this past year. Was he ignoring the essential context?

But, but, but let me explain to you some reasons for his failure and then you will understand that CBJ is really an SEC championship caliber coach, despite what his record says.

 

[Wylo]

But, but, but let me explain to you some reasons for his failure and then you will understand that CBJ is really an SEC championship caliber coach, despite what his record says.

awesome.. well played.

 

[KBVol]

There is no question about that. Dooley had a great offensive staff and they would have scored a lot more and been more competitive with the exact same players we had this last year. And of course if he could have kept Wilcox we would not even be talking about any of this because Doley would still be coaching here (would have gone 9-3 or even 10-2 his last year with that offense if Wilcox was still coaching defense).

Thank GOD Wilcox and Sirmon had the good sense to run away from the sinking ship that was Dooley as soon as they could then.

 

[FiremedicVOL127]

Well let's see if CBJ will put that type of offense on the field within his first 3 years (1 strike, 2 to go). So far I have my doubts. Also, I would rather watch games where offense scores enough where we at least have a chance deep in 4th quarter like we did during Dooley's last year rather then games be over after 1st quarter (too many times this year).

How many top 15 teams did Dooley have to play that last year? That keeps getting ignored as well. Now go back and see how many games Dooley won against top 15 teams. How many was there? I am in no way ok with this past seasons outcome (the bottom line) but over all I saw improvements on both sides of the ball and I also saw some areas where they needed improvement. I'm optimistic for 2014 season but I'm not setting goals like SEC champs or we suck. We need to be over or atleast at .500 at the end of the season and compete and hopefully win a bowl game!

 

[Boca Vol]

How many top 15 teams did Dooley have to play that last year? That keeps getting ignored as well. Now go back and see how many games Dooley won against top 15 teams. How many was there? I am in no way ok with this past seasons outcome (the bottom line) but over all I saw improvements on both sides of the ball and I also saw some areas where they needed improvement. I'm optimistic for 2014 season but I'm not setting goals like SEC champs or we suck. We need to be over or atleast at .500 at the end of the season and compete and hopefully win a bowl game!

Don't know their exact rankings but UT played UF, UGA, Miss St, Bama and S. Carolina in a 6 week stretch last year. That's pretty tough.

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

It does because that's how the real world works. Just like Dooley got a strike for his year one loses even though he obviously did not play with players he recruited. That is actually true for year 2 in most cases as well. So good coaches have no choice than to make do with what they find when they arrive - better ones can make those adjustments - weaker ones will cry that they need 4 years to implement their system, etc (but in the end of the day they usually don't get the benefit of the doubt after couple of losing seasons and usually get canned - at least in programs that have expectations like Tennessee that's the case).

Can't speak for anyone else but I didn't give Dooley a strike for year one. He actually did pretty good in his first, it was his second and third year that got him.

 

[KBVol]

Don't know their exact rankings but UT played UF, UGA, Miss St, Bama and S. Carolina in a 6 week stretch last year. That's pretty tough.

2012....
Fla 11-2 9th
Ga 12-2 5th
Ms St 8-5 not ranked
Bama 13-1 1st
SCar 11-2 8th

Totals 55-12 combined record, 4 Top 10 teams, 1 not ranked

2013....
Ore 11-2 9th
SCar 11-2 4th
Bama 12-2 7th
Mizz 12-2 5th
Aub 12-2 2nd

Totals 58-10 combined record, 5 Top 10 teams

Very similar

 

[KBVol]

Can't speak for anyone else but I didn't give Dooley a strike for year one. He actually did pretty good in his first, it was his second and third year that got him.

The more Dooley installed "his system", his "culture"..... the more he got "his players" in, the worse things got.

 

[Boca Vol]

2012....
Fla 11-2 9th
Ga 12-2 5th
Ms St 8-5 not ranked
Bama 13-1 1st
SCar 11-2 8th

Totals 55-12 combined record, 4 Top 10 teams, 1 not ranked

2013....
Ore 11-2 9th
SCar 11-2 4th
Bama 12-2 7th
Mizz 12-2 5th
Aub 12-2 2nd

Totals 58-10 combined record, 5 Top 10 teams

Very similar

Thanks for looking into that a little deeper. It is, indeed, very similar.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

How many top 15 teams did Dooley have to play that last year? That keeps getting ignored as well. Now go back and see how many games Dooley won against top 15 teams. How many was there? I am in no way ok with this past seasons outcome (the bottom line) but over all I saw improvements on both sides of the ball and I also saw some areas where they needed improvement. I'm optimistic for 2014 season but I'm not setting goals like SEC champs or we suck. We need to be over or atleast at .500 at the end of the season and compete and hopefully win a bowl game!

The OL was good enough to carry the offense but wasn't utilized effectively. I'm not gonna bash because I don't want to be accused of hurting recruiting and it's possible that the 2014 class will be good enough to move us a rung on the ladder. The field general ship was unimpressive to say the least and a lot of mistakes were covered by the fact that we were getting blown out so bad that everyone just blamed talent disparity.

 

[TGVol]

over all I saw improvements on both sides of the ball

That's the most ridiculous statement I have seen on this forum since I joined and that was not an easy task to accomplish. REALLY, you saw improvement on offense? That's beyond laughable - even CBJ himself would have to laugh at that. :crazy:

 

[UTRavens]

Butch's minimum goal was to make a bowl game this past year. Was he ignoring the essential context?

Maybe he was. There should be absolutely no stock put into what a coach says in an interview or press conference whatsoever. It is entirely meaningless.

The FACT is, the 2013 team was MUCH less talented than the 2012 team. Don't try to suppress ESSENTIAL context by ignoring it all and just saying "oh, he should have won this many games JUST BECAUSE"

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

That's the most ridiculous statement I have seen on this forum since I joined and that was not an easy task to accomplish. REALLY, you saw improvement on offense? That's beyond laughable - even CBJ himself would have to laugh at that. :crazy:

CBJ did manage to do something Dooley never could and that's beat a top 10 team.