Da Reds thread

#11,479
#11,479
champyvol said:
should have moved bruce and byrd. wasn't expecting much with jock though. the next 5 years are gonna be rough.
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Yep - time for Bruce to tank the rest of the season like he usually does since he's had his good 2 months. Byrd is running on soon to be 38 year old legs. Multi-tasking is not in Walter's repertoire, Chappy. He is single minded on pitching. 15 pitcher active 25 roster coming soon.

Do you find it ironic that the D-Backs have Goldschmidt, who will average $6.4 M per year through 2018 - while the Reds have Votto averaging $20M through the same period when you look at the production of both guys? Once again, Goldy is leading JV in every major hitting category - even OBP for the stats nerds. So let's assume Goldy is making his final contract year income of $14.5 M when he is actually making $3 M this season. What could Walter and Bob do to help the team with the extra $6 M? Just a thought.

Again - Reds hit multiple HR's and they win the majority of their games if pitching is decent. No HR's, they lose the vast majority of the time regardless of pitching. No RISP for a couple years now.
 
#11,480
#11,480
Vols4us said:
Yep - time for Bruce to tank the rest of the season like he usually does since he's had his good 2 months. Byrd is running on soon to be 38 year old legs. Multi-tasking is not in Walter's repertoire, Chappy. He is single minded on pitching. 15 pitcher active 25 roster coming soon.

Do you find it ironic that the D-Backs have Goldschmidt, who will average $6.4 M per year through 2018 - while the Reds have Votto averaging $20M through the same period when you look at the production of both guys? Once again, Goldy is leading JV in every major hitting category - even OBP for the stats nerds. So let's assume Goldy is making his final contract year income of $14.5 M when he is actually making $3 M this season. What could Walter and Bob do to help the team with the extra $6 M? Just a thought.

Again - Reds hit multiple HR's and they win the majority of their games if pitching is decent. No HR's, they lose the vast majority of the time regardless of pitching. No RISP for a couple years now.
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Are you crying? You seem like you're crying.
 
#11,481
#11,481
Scotty's Flat Top said:
Are you crying? You seem like you're crying.
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he's just stating facts. reds are done for years to come. most fans saw this coming with the huge contracts being handed out by an idiot GM. JOCK gambled and lost, but you can't really say he lost because he still has his job. can't blame the players for taking the club killing contracts they all want to get paid. regardless the facts are the reds are down and are gonna be down for awhile. you said the reds would be fine. can't even admit when your wrong that is pretty sad.
 
#11,482
#11,482
champyvol said:
he's just stating facts. reds are done for years to come. most fans saw this coming with the huge contracts being handed out by an idiot GM. JOCK gambled and lost, but you can't really say he lost because he still has his job. can't blame the players for taking the club killing contracts they all want to get paid. regardless the facts are the reds are down and are gonna be down for awhile. you said the reds would be fine. can't even admit when your wrong that is pretty sad.
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He does blame the player(s) ie Votto. He is the midst of a terrific season, but it isn't good enough. As he isnt putting up better numbers than a great 1st baseman in a career year. It's moronic. Spoiler alert, the game isn't getting any cheaper. Great ball players get paid. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
 
#11,483
#11,483
Scotty's Flat Top said:
He does blame the player(s) ie Votto. He is the midst of a terrific season, but it isn't good enough. As he isnt putting up better numbers than a great 1st baseman in a career year. It's moronic. Spoiler alert, the game isn't getting any cheaper. Great ball players get paid. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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true votto is having a great season. I compare votto to Aroid. no matter what he does now the reds are not going to win because of his stupid contract. the fans are going to blame him. the real idiot of the group is jocketty and bobby for 3 stupid contracts. bailey, votto, and phillips will keep the reds in the gutter for years. bailey is one of the worst contracts in history in my opinion. regardless there is no money to sign other players, can't trade the 3 stupid contracts because all other mlb teams are smarter than the reds. so we will be near the cellar for at least 5 years.
 
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#11,484
#11,484
I guess my definition of "great" must be different. I am seeing Votto have a good, not great season. He's hitting around .300, he may have around 90 runs and 80 RBI's when it's done. Sorry - that's not great. Impressive OBP again. And it will net the team how many wins on the season? Not many because they have very few guys that can hit with RISP. So do you pay a guy $20+ M a season for the next 8 or 9 years to primarily be a table setter, or, do you strongly encourage him to go back to being what you contracted him to be? He started off doing it this season and was very promising. Then it just all stopped except for a game here and there. Nobody blames him for signing the stupid contract. But if you are going to sign it be prepared to earn it or be criticized.

Goldy, Fielder, Hosmer, Rizzo, Gonzalez, Abreu - all are as good or better than Votto in the major offensive categories this season - much less the previous few. Had Freeman not been hurt this season he would have as well. The only measure Votto excels at is OBP. He is currently rated 17th defensively. His base running is average. He is what he is and when you add it to the other dumb contracts, as you say Chappy, 5 more years of cellar dwelling unless the 'greater fool theory' kicks in and some other teams get stupid and take them in trade.
 
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#11,487
#11,487
Vols4us said:
I guess my definition of "great" must be different. I am seeing Votto have a good, not great season. He's hitting around .300, he may have around 90 runs and 80 RBI's when it's done. Sorry - that's not great. Impressive OBP again. And it will net the team how many wins on the season? Not many because they have very few guys that can hit with RISP. So do you pay a guy $20+ M a season for the next 8 or 9 years to primarily be a table setter, or, do you strongly encourage him to go back to being what you contracted him to be? He started off doing it this season and was very promising. Then it just all stopped except for a game here and there. Nobody blames him for signing the stupid contract. But if you are going to sign it be prepared to earn it or be criticized.

Goldy, Fielder, Hosmer, Rizzo, Gonzalez, Abreu - all are as good or better than Votto in the major offensive categories this season - much less the previous few. Had Freeman not been hurt this season he would have as well. The only measure Votto excels at is OBP. He is currently rated 17th defensively. His base running is average. He is what he is and when you add it to the other dumb contracts, as you say Chappy, 5 more years of cellar dwelling unless the 'greater fool theory' kicks in and some other teams get stupid and take them in trade.
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In today's game of pitcher dominance, he is having a great season. The game has reverted to the mean. We are no longer in the steroid era. He is putting up numbers, it's not his fault people aren't on base when he hits a gap or puts one over the fence.
 
#11,489
#11,489
Scotty's Flat Top said:
OPS of .967.

Reds fans: I guess he is having a good season.
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I have to disagree with this statement. it is all great to take walks, but votto does take way to many strikes trying to draw them. the way he is paid and the way he hits the ball he should be up there swinging for the bleachers. it still comes down to wins and losses and we suck balls right now. I think all reds fans would agree the club is going down the tubes and the idiotic contracts that jock gave out are a major reason. hell I think we are 30 mil ahead of the braves this year and they are a bigger market.
 
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#11,490
#11,490
Scotty's Flat Top said:
In today's game of pitcher dominance, he is having a great season. The game has reverted to the mean. We are no longer in the steroid era. He is putting up numbers, it's not his fault people aren't on base when he hits a gap or puts one over the fence.
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Well said.

Scotty's Flat Top said:
OPS of .967.

Reds fans: I guess he is having a good season.
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Please don't lump us all together. If you go read RedsZone you'll see these two are the minority.

champyvol said:
I have to disagree with this statement. it is all great to take walks, but votto does take way to many strikes trying to draw them. the way he is paid and the way he hits the ball he should be up there swinging for the bleachers. it still comes down to wins and losses and we suck balls right now. I think all reds fans would agree the club is going down the tubes and the idiotic contracts that jock gave out are a major reason. hell I think we are 30 mil ahead of the braves this year and they are a bigger market.
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You do understand that OPS is Slugging % as well as OBP right? Votto has ALWAYS been this player. His two best HR seasons were his age 26 and 27 seasons; the ages where most players peak in HR. The year he hit 37 HR his ISO and HR/FB ratio were higher than any other year in his career. To expect that every year is just ignoring facts. He is a 25 HR type player, with the ability to fill the stat sheet in every category. The best statistic we have to measure a player's value is wRC+. Please read up on this - wRC and wRC+ | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library. Here is the best snippet from that article.

If you want a rate statistic for hitters that weights each offensive action and controls for league and park effects, wRC+ is for you. While wOBA is a huge step forward from stats like batting average and slugging percentage, it doesn’t credit hitters who play in difficult parks or deduct points for hitters who play in smaller ones. wRC+ brings all the virtues of wOBA plus two added benefits; park and league adjustments. A .400 wOBA at Coors is much less impressive than one at Petco, for example. Additionally, wOBA tracks with overall league offense, so you can’t use it to compare players of different eras very effectively. A .400 wOBA in 2000 is much less impressive than one in 2014, but a 140 wRC+ in 2000 means essentially the same thing in 2014.
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Since 2008 Votto has a career 156 wRC+, that's 3rd behind Trout and Miggy. Think about that. He is ahead of Pujols, Stanton, McCutchen, Goldschmidt, Joey Bats, Posey, Harper and so on.

You two are ignoring the evolution of baseball to justify your frustration. I'm sure it's very possible you'll brush off everything in this post, but it really would be beneficial for your understanding of the game and really enhance our discussions here. You guys do make some valid points, but your arguments just don't hold much weight and that's why people constantly frequent our thread to take jabs at you and you just keep giving them ammo.
 
#11,491
#11,491
Appa - with their most recent hire even the Red Sox are moving away from the stuff you are selling. Anybody can go back to another decade and pull out what they want with any player at his high marks, any team, etc. 2008 - really?!

Do you think either of us give a rip about what others think about us? Nah. Been around too long and seen too much to care about that. All of you stats guys can get back to me when the Reds win their first playoff series, much less a WS, with JV on the roster. I would even settle for a winning season at this point.

I find the love for stats over the love of playing the game on the field amusing.
 
#11,493
#11,493
I didn't say 2008 exclusively. I said SINCE 2008; as in 2008 - present.

We may not win with Votto on the roster but that has less to do with him than it does with the team around him.
 
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#11,494
#11,494
Appalachiamuck said:
Well said.

Please don't lump us all together. If you go read RedsZone you'll see these two are the minority.

You do understand that OPS is Slugging % as well as OBP right? Votto has ALWAYS been this player. His two best HR seasons were his age 26 and 27 seasons; the ages where most players peak in HR. The year he hit 37 HR his ISO and HR/FB ratio were higher than any other year in his career. To expect that every year is just ignoring facts. He is a 25 HR type player, with the ability to fill the stat sheet in every category. The best statistic we have to measure a player's value is wRC+. Please read up on this - wRC and wRC+ | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library. Here is the best snippet from that article.



Since 2008 Votto has a career 156 wRC+, that's 3rd behind Trout and Miggy. Think about that. He is ahead of Pujols, Stanton, McCutchen, Goldschmidt, Joey Bats, Posey, Harper and so on.

You two are ignoring the evolution of baseball to justify your frustration. I'm sure it's very possible you'll brush off everything in this post, but it really would be beneficial for your understanding of the game and really enhance our discussions here. You guys do make some valid points, but your arguments just don't hold much weight and that's why people constantly frequent our thread to take jabs at you and you just keep giving them ammo.
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if the evolution means we can't even have a winning record then what is the point. first order of business is to fire price. he is 10 times worse than toothpick ever was. next is to replace jocketty, he should not be given another chance to pick a manager. regardless we are going to suck for the next 5 to 10 years. we just don't have the money to field great players around votto and phillips.
 
#11,495
#11,495
Appalachiamuck said:
I didn't say 2008 exclusively. I said SINCE 2008; as in 2008 - present.

We may not win with Votto on the roster but that has less to do with hum than it does with the team around him.
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because of the money spent on him, phillips, bailey, bruce we can't go get another good player. that does have something to do with votto.
 
#11,497
#11,497
perfect example tonight as I was watching espn. votto and phillips homered. congrats there was nobody on base and we lost. hope joey and Brandon enjoy there money because they won't sniff the playoffs again. booby do the fans a favor and fire jock and price. at the very least it will give us reds fans something to watch for a month next year
 
#11,499
#11,499
I'm completely confused. You are mad that Jock locked up good players (excluding Phillips) currently on your team by spending money and saying that it's the reason you can't get good players, yet if you didn't spend money on Votto, Bruce, and Phillips, you would even have a worse team.
 
#11,500
#11,500
The Reds did it right. They built through the draft and trades for younger guys, made the playoffs three out of four years (and won the division twice) and signed their hometown guys. Injuries, players getting older, and overall bad luck just hurt. The Votto and Bruce contracts were good signings, Phillips was meh, and Bailey was a bad signing. You guys have a lot of talented pitching in the farm system. Suarez looks like a legitimate shortstop of the future that you freaking stole from my Tigers. DeSclafini and Iglesias look like guys with a lot of potential pitching. Chapman will bring in a nice haul next year. I don't think you are as screwed as you think you are.
 
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