Developing story on Mel Tucker

[UTFanHades]

What did I say that was incorrect? Why don’t you stop having a meltdown and read the source? Comparing it to AJ Johnson is totally irrelevant, as Tucker isn’t facing criminal charges, and I only pointed out what he already admitted to.

Michigan State football coach Mel Tucker accused of sexually harassing rape survivor

Michigan State is investigating claim that the Spartans coach harassed Brenda Tracy, an anti-gender-based violence activist and trainer.

www.usatoday.com

In his statements to the Title IX investigator, Tucker acknowledged masturbating on the call but said Tracy grossly mischaracterized the episode. According to him, they had consensual “phone sex.”

It’s very relevant to AJ Johnson because he was kicked off the football team and denied gainful employment in the NFL only because of hearsay allegations that were later proven in a court (where we still have some level of due process for now) to be completely baseless. Criminal charges aren’t the only penalty that can arise before due process is determined. I also know someone present at the party and that has firsthand knowledge of what occurred and this person’s statements corroborate the court findings. I’m not upset and you’re the one being emotional and projecting those feelings towards me via (wait for it) allegations.

Please refer to the other comment I had where, upon learning of his stmts when I previously stated i didn’t have complete knowledge of the facts, that I state that his admission is indeed an ethical lapse at minimum. It’s possible he can face termination or even criminal charges, but he deserves due process under both his employment agreement and the law.

 

[VolNExile]

Yeah see Knox News Sentinel coverage of AJ Johnson. On a national level look up the “Mattress Girl” saga. Justice Brett Kavanaugh is another. Countless others but does that work for a start?

No, you listed a few examples (one of which is pretty debatable) - this is called anecdata, not evidence. You're probably not meaning to, but you're repeating the common "blame the victim" in rape incidents. Downplay what happened, cast doubt on whether it really happened, cast doubt on whether it was non-consensual, etc.

If your wife/ girlfriend/ daughter/ mother/ sister came to you with this, what would your reaction be?

 

[Tman44]

Yeah see Knox News Sentinel coverage of AJ Johnson. On a national level look up the “Mattress Girl” saga. Justice Brett Kavanaugh is another. Countless others but does that work for a start?

You hit the nail on the head there. When the whole "Me Too" stuff came around we all started hearing the most mind numbing stupidity imaginable. One thing in particular was people would say "her truth." Sorry, that's total BS. There is THE truth and not the truth, trying to phrase things differently is an admission that what is being stated is NOT the truth.

 

[volfanhill]

You hit the nail on the head there. When the whole "Me Too" stuff came around we all started hearing the most mind numbing stupidity imaginable. One thing in particular was people would say "her truth." Sorry, that's total BS. There is THE truth and not the truth, trying to phrase things differently is an admission that what is being stated is NOT the truth.

His truth is that he admitted to jerking off on the phone with a third party contractor who's business was dependant on him. It's harrasment in every corporation in America.

 

[UTFanHades]

No, you listed a few examples (one of which is pretty debatable) - this is called anecdata, not evidence. You're probably not meaning to, but you're repeating the common "blame the victim" in rape incidents. Downplay what happened, cast doubt on whether it really happened, cast doubt on whether it was non-consensual, etc.

If your wife/ girlfriend/ daughter/ mother/ sister came to you with this, what would your reaction be?

No these aren’t anecdotes because each incident is well documented in the media and courts. Those are documented factual instances. Are you saying AJ Johnson was guilty when a court determined otherwise? Seems like you’re blaming him-the victim-which is my point. The “believe all women” central tenet of Me Too is a call to abolish due process. I don’t “believe” anyone. I believe in evidence and due process and recognize that women and men on either side of these allegations can be the true victim.

Not getting where you’re going with the “if it was your X argument” but proven crimes of that nature are abhorrent and I would want a court or some form of due process to occur and then have that person prosecuted to the full extent of that institution’s power. I don’t believe my tertiary victimhood would give me the right to single-handedly enact vigilante justice.

 

[VolNExile]

No these aren’t anecdotes because each incident is well documented in the media and courts. Those are documented factual instances. Are you saying AJ Johnson was guilty when a court determined otherwise? Seems like you’re blaming him-the victim-which is my point. The “believe all women” central tenet of Me Too is a call to abolish due process. I don’t “believe” anyone. I believe in evidence and due process and recognize that women and men on either side of these allegations can be the true victim.

Not getting where you’re going with the “if it was your X argument” but proven crimes of that nature are abhorrent and I would want a court or some form of due process to occur and then have that person prosecuted to the full extent of that institution’s power. I don’t believe my tertiary victimhood would give me the right to single-handedly enact vigilante justice.

No, "anecdata" means using a few incidents that you are familiar with to generalize across all. I certainly believe AJ was set up. It's good to believe in evidence and due process, but it's also good to be aware that there is a built-in bias in the justice system and also in our personal belief system to discount what those who are generally lower down the social status pole say happened to them. This can color how we interpret evidence. I mentioned the "if it was your X argument", because sometimes things ring differently when we hear them from someone we know.

Sorry, no idea where the vigilante justice and tertiary victimhood parts came from. Have a good week.

 

[05_never_again]

Yeah-I don’t know what level of evidence is necessary since Mich St is a govt institution and presumably has a higher firing threshold than a private at will employer but it’s a bad look if it’s true he admitted to calling her and doing what was alleged. That certainly is an ethical violation.

I don't think any further evidence would be necessary. Tucker has already admitted to something that Mich St could terminate him for cause for.

This was an unbelievably stupid move for multiple reasons, consensual or not. While I agree in principle with some of the critiques of the Me Too movement that are being discussed in this thread, honestly that whole discussion is kind of irrelevant to this situation because of what I said above.

 

[UTFanHades]

No, "anecdata" means using a few incidents that you are familiar with to generalize across all. I certainly believe AJ was set up. It's good to believe in evidence and due process, but it's also good to be aware that there is a built-in bias in the justice system and also in our personal belief system to discount what those who are generally lower down the social status pole say happened to them. This can color how we interpret evidence. I mentioned the "if it was your X argument", because sometimes things ring differently when we hear them from someone we know.

Sorry, no idea where the vigilante justice and tertiary victimhood parts came from. Have a good week.

The fact that certain examples were provided is indicative that other examples exist. They were provided as simple reminders of why due process is necessary and to demonstrate the Me Too argument, as stated in their “believe all women”, is a call to demolish due process for these types of allegations. I’m not looking to provide studies and other evidence on a message board to convince someone who doesn’t believe in due process why it’s necessary.

There is of course bias in the justice system which is why due process exists and why jurors are instructed to consider only evidence and are reminded to not place themselves in anyone’s shoes. I know this because I personally served for over a week on a major criminal case at a federal court. Instead of putting yourselves in the alleged victims shoes jurors are instructed to assess whether any level of bias is being appropriately considered and whether that is impacting consideration of evidence. This is why due process is the best possible means of getting unbiased justice and why it needs to be free from Me Too’s bias that calls for the disregard of certain evidence.

 

[UTFanHades]

I don't think any further evidence would be necessary. Tucker has already admitted to something that Mich St could terminate him for cause for.

This was an unbelievably stupid move for multiple reasons, consensual or not. While I agree in principle with some of the critiques of the Me Too movement that are being discussed in this thread, honestly that whole discussion is kind of irrelevant to this situation because of what I said above.

Not defending Mel or calling for his continued employment. Just wanting institutions to follow due process because they don’t always and are being pressured by activist groups to not. I actually made a post stating there’s a lot of better ways a guy with his money and position can get his rocks off than what he stupidly admitted to.

 

[Tman44]

His truth is that he admitted to jerking off on the phone with a third party contractor who's business was dependant on him. It's harrasment in every corporation in America.

Dude, I agree he is a idiot of the highest degree, guilty of all kinds of things and deserves to be fired. That had nothing to do with what I stated in that post.

 

[Nerwen Aldarion]

I agree the me too movement went way too far, what started off as a rallying cry for survivors to step up turned into a Salem witch hunt. Some of the title x reforms horrified me in that a male student accused of assault had to prove his innocence beyond all doubt or he would be expelled from the university. Many considered this acceptable as it wasn’t a legal process and they could “just go to another school”. The reality was that students accused of assault and unable to provide evidence (sometimes not even allowed to) were blacklisted from other universities and even employment and their lives essentially ruined.

I find that practice absolutely abhorrent and the accusations against others like Aziz Ansari, Chris Harrison and Johnny Depp prove that some women are more than happy to make up accusations in order to get revenge and publicity.

Fortunately, this is a small minority of women. Unfortunately they taint the real survivors who come forward and allow real skepticism.

I have no idea if this is a real accusation or a false front. I’m certain the woman’s original accusation from twenty years ago against four players in Oregon is true as there was a lot of evidence and the boys admitted to sexual conduct with her while she was unconscious and that she was also saying no when she was conscious. Unfortunately, things were different then and Justice was denied.

Does that mean she’s being truthful here? I don’t know, I don’t want to jump to any conclusions. The whole situation is strange.

Regardless, Mel engaged in inappropriate behavior involving a contracted speaker with the university. That’s more than enough to get him fired with cause. He’s going to be gone either way.

I do hope the truth over if it was consensual or not does come out. I do not think his life should be ruined if it was consensual and he should not be labeled sn offender in that instance. On the flip side, if he is guilty then he should be punished by the university and the law.

As always, innocent until proven guilty

 

[05_never_again]

Not defending Mel or calling for his continued employment. Just wanting institutions to follow due process because they don’t always and are being pressured by activist groups to not. I actually made a post stating there’s a lot of better ways a guy with his money and position can get his rocks off than what he stupidly admitted to.

I hear you, but like I said, he's already admitted to doing something that Mich St could fire him for cause for. The school following due process is kind of irrelevant at this point, as is any activist group pressure. They likely have buyer's remorse about the contract they signed him to 2 years ago, and now this happens. Just from the stuff he's admitted to, he can be termed for cause if the school wants to pull that trigger.

They're merely keeping their options open by not firing him yet and putting him on unpaid leave during the investigation, but there's a 99.999% chance he's coached his last game there.

 

[zjcvols]

I have to say these accusations and everything surrounding them are the most stupid things I have heard in a long time. Tuggernuts is an abject idiot for doing this in the first place. The woman is either lying or a bigger idiot. All she had to do was hang up the phone if there was a problem. Perhaps don't answer the phone in the first place. For goodness sakes don't keep up this phone relationship for so long if it is truly troubling. Oh, the timing seems mighty convenient as well, doesn't it? This stinks to high heaven. If I was paying someone $80 million for a 5-7 record I might be tempted to dig for a little dirt.

This is so easy to say when A) You haven’t been sexually harassed before or in that type of position or B) You haven’t experienced an employer putting you in an uncomfortable position or C) You haven’t been a victim of sexual assault

 

[volfanhill]

I have to say these accusations and everything surrounding them are the most stupid things I have heard in a long time. Tuggernuts is an abject idiot for doing this in the first place. The woman is either lying or a bigger idiot. All she had to do was hang up the phone if there was a problem. Perhaps don't answer the phone in the first place. For goodness sakes don't keep up this phone relationship for so long if it is truly troubling. Oh, the timing seems mighty convenient as well, doesn't it? This stinks to high heaven. If I was paying someone $80 million for a 5-7 record I might be tempted to dig for a little dirt.

Hang up and maybe lose the business relationship? Stop. It's gross

 

[VAVol85]

That's smart. Once the title IX investigation goes the way most think it will old Mel gets zero dollars.

That was an expensive few minutes for Mr. Tucker.

 

[Remy]

a ‘phone relationship’ lmao… nobody even talks on the phone anymore, it’s not 1996 that’s what struck me

It's a little different if along with the conversation they're using facetime for things that aren't faces. Just saying as a friend told me. File this under the phones these days are not your mama and daddy's talkies only phones.

 

[zjcvols]

That was an expensive few minutes for Mr. Tucker.

Man, I get the Bobby Petrino thing, young hot blonde co-ed you get tangled up with. Like, yeah you got caught and it was wrong but man has fallen to physical temptation since the beginning of time.

To throw $77M away for phone sex?!?!?! Brother, they have discrete lines specifically for phone sex! And to do it to a known sexual assault victim without her permission?!?! What kind of sick pervert are you???

 

[GVF]

Man gonna get get it in both ends. By the girl. By the wife.

 

[Volfan76]

This is the problem with the woke culture...let's just say you are in the small percentage that might think it's a good idea to sexually harass the sexual harassment instructor. Almost all of them would have a light bulb go off over their head and they would see themselves being the butt of every joke of every comedian and night show host for the next decade. Now that woke culture killed comedy, people are doing stupid stuff like this and aren't even ridiculed into submission.

 

[Tman44]

This is so easy to say when A) You haven’t been sexually harassed before or in that type of position or B) You haven’t experienced an employer putting you in an uncomfortable position or C) You haven’t been a victim of sexual assault

Hang up and maybe lose the business relationship? Stop. It's gross

It seems both of you are missing something, and a great amount of people today miss the same thing. What Tucker did was idiotic. She continued to allow this to happen. There is something in this world called PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY. That means she should have hung up and discontinued the relationship IF it bothered her. I have no reason to disbelieve her, but I have less of a reason to believe her due to her allowing this behavior to continue. Losing a business relationship? Seriously? How dumb would you have to be to allow that to continue if you are already in that industry? She had to have known she had an air tight law suit from the beginning, so I don't buy that argument in the least bit. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT TUCKER DID and people also need to realize they are responsible for their own actions, such as her continuing a terrible relationship. IF she didn't want to take part in this, she only has herself to blame for the continuance of the abuse. Neglecting the fact that people are responsible for their own actions will only lead to more victims in the future, and no one wants that.

 

[zjcvols]

It seems both of you are missing something, and a great amount of people today miss the same thing. What Tucker did was idiotic. She continued to allow this to happen. There is something in this world called PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY. That means she should have hung up and discontinued the relationship IF it bothered her. I have no reason to disbelieve her, but I have less of a reason to believe her due to her allowing this behavior to continue. Losing a business relationship? Seriously? How dumb would you have to be to allow that to continue if you are already in that industry? She had to have known she had an air tight law suit from the beginning, so I don't buy that argument in the least bit. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT TUCKER DID and people also need to realize they are responsible for their own actions, such as her continuing a terrible relationship. IF she didn't want to take part in this, she only has herself to blame for the continuance of the abuse. Neglecting the fact that people are responsible for their own actions will only lead to more victims in the future, and no one wants that.

All of this is incredibly easy to say when you aren’t a victim. It’s so easy to put yourself in that situation when you haven’t experienced it. The idea of “well you shouldn’t have let it happen” or “you should have stopped it” is a very dangerous, slippery slope and why a lot of victims don’t report.

 

[jpope9]

 

[05_never_again]

Based on what he said in his recently published statement, I don't think Mel gets the situation he's in either.

His take on what occurred can be 100% true and he can still (in all likelihood) be fired for cause. Just like seemingly every other situation in life, the only winners here will be lawyers and their billable hours.

 

[MAD]

This is the problem with the woke culture...let's just say you are in the small percentage that might think it's a good idea to sexually harass the sexual harassment instructor. Almost all of them would have a light bulb go off over their head and they would see themselves being the butt of every joke of every comedian and night show host for the next decade. Now that woke culture killed comedy, people are doing stupid stuff like this and aren't even ridiculed into submission.

Did you really just say that?

 

[butchna]

It seems both of you are missing something, and a great amount of people today miss the same thing. What Tucker did was idiotic. She continued to allow this to happen. There is something in this world called PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY. That means she should have hung up and discontinued the relationship IF it bothered her. I have no reason to disbelieve her, but I have less of a reason to believe her due to her allowing this behavior to continue. Losing a business relationship? Seriously? How dumb would you have to be to allow that to continue if you are already in that industry? She had to have known she had an air tight law suit from the beginning, so I don't buy that argument in the least bit. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT TUCKER DID and people also need to realize they are responsible for their own actions, such as her continuing a terrible relationship. IF she didn't want to take part in this, she only has herself to blame for the continuance of the abuse. Neglecting the fact that people are responsible for their own actions will only lead to more victims in the future, and no one wants that.

She’s not pulling down $9.5 mil a year to be the face of the football program, so whatever her culpability…it’s a moot point. It’s why that stipulation is in his contract…shame and dishonor. He’s supposed to attend coaches conventions, conference meetings…Hell recruit in parents living rooms and high schools with the mental image of him in his university comped Florida spank hotel far away from his wife and kids? HIS responsibilities rank first.