Electric Vehicles

[UT-Rex]

Oh I can’t wait to see the long lines for the $100k+ BEV SUVs, Ronald

And I don’t care about the parking issues that isn’t my line.

You should get a kick out of what Shell is marketing here --

Shell Recharge Solutions | Shell United States

Shell Recharge Solutions provides customized, turn-key EV charging solutions for your fleet, and helps take care of every step on your journey to electrification. With At Home, On The Go, and Destination/Depot/Hub solutions, you can maximize your operational performance, fleet reliability and total cost of ownership to meet the logistical needs of your business.

 

[UT-Rex]

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

Based on your knowledge, Is this accurate at date / $16 per kg ( / 0.264 gal) ? And if you happen to know, what is the avg miles per kg ?

What Are Hydrogen Cars? (jdpower.com)

"Hydrogen cars are still quite pricey, so they belong to the premium segment of the automotive market. These vehicles start at $50,000.

As the industry is young, the fuel cost is also not cheap. One kilogram of hydrogen gas costs about $16."

 

[UT-Rex]

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

As a marketer, how are you going to convince the rest of America to follow the lead and recommendations of Calif (at a current hydro $ > than current petrol $) ?

• There are only about 15,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles on U.S. roads right now, and all of them are in California. Meanwhile, EVs are out there in the millions.
• While electric cars are getting attention, with major manufacturers focusing on making them dominant by 2030, hydrogen vehicles are staying in the background for now.

"To quote the California Hydrogen Business Council, “Currently, a kilogram of hydrogen costs between $10 and $17 at California hydrogen stations, which equals about $5 to $8.50 per gallon of gasoline” to cover the same distance."

PUBLISHED: SEP 26, 2022
Hydrogen Cars: Everything You Need To Know (caranddriver.com)

 

[UT-Rex]

Oh I can’t wait to see the long lines for the $100k+ BEV SUVs, Ronald

And I don’t care about the parking issues that isn’t my line.

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

If you want potential customers to switch from EV to hydrog, you ought to stop referring to them around others as cl-wns, and win them over with real, comparable facts --

a. "To date, about 2.5 million EVs have been sold in the U.S. By contrast, as of mid-2022, 15,000 or fewer hydrogen-powered vehicles can be found on U.S. roads. "

"To quote the California Hydrogen Business Council, “Currently, a kilogram of hydrogen costs between $10 and $17 at California hydrogen stations, which equals about $5 to $8.50 per gallon of gasoline” to cover the same distance."
Hydrogen Cars: Everything You Need To Know (caranddriver.com)

b. “Making the initial leap of faith into owning a BEV is proving to be very satisfying,” said Brent Gruber, senior director of global automotive at J.D. Power.
2022 U.S. Electric Vehicle Experience (EVX) Ownership Study | J.D. Power (jdpower.com)

 

[UT-Rex]

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

"all" ? Do you include cost/price as part of the 800lbs ?

"The cost of electrolytic hydrogen from renewable energy spiked as high as $16.80/kg in late July, three times recent price norms, according to S&P Global Commodity Insights."

"Because hydrogen must be derived from inputs such as natural gas or renewable electricity, the cost of hydrogen rises alongside these resources, according to Alan Hayes, head of energy transition pricing for S&P Global Commodity Insights. Surging energy costs in the Electric Reliability Council of Texas market have driven the largest hydrogen price hikes," Hayes said.

Green hydrogen prices have nearly tripled as energy costs climb: S&P | Utility Dive

 

[UT-Rex]

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

"all" ? / A very bold claim, according to this source (referring to "The (a) problem") --

"Today we use nearly 100 million tonnes of hydrogen as a feedstock for chemicals and fertiliser production worldwide. The problem with this is that this so-called grey hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels. Around a billion tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions each year are associated with this hydrogen production, equivalent to approximately 2% of global emissions."

Wed 16 Aug 2023 22.47 EDT
Only genuinely clean hydrogen can help solve the climate crisis | Malcolm Turnbull | The Guardian


(compare as you will to "blue" hydrogen)

 

[UT-Rex]

Ronald

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

As hydrogen is produced from (light and heavier) carbon sources (e.g. fossil fuels) : What (factually or in your opinion) is the main, natural source of the "fossil fuels" ?


"However, unlike a battery-electric car, hydrogen-powered vehicles don't require charging. You refuel them with hydrogen gas, which is pumped in the same way as you would fill up conventional petrol or diesel. It takes several minutes to fill a full tank."
What Are Hydrogen Cars? (jdpower.com)

"Hydrogen can be produced from diverse, domestic resources. Currently, most hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, specifically natural gas. Electricity—from the grid or from renewable sources such as wind, solar, geothermal, or biomass—is also currently used to produce hydrogen. In the longer term, solar energy and biomass can be used more directly to generate hydrogen."

Hydrogen Resources | Department of Energy

 

[UT-Rex]

I am getting a really good chuckle out of this uninformed tool expecting government to make his life better and solve his problems

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

It's actually the hydrogen producers who are "expecting" (via subsidies) --

"About 30 carbon-capture projects have been proposed in Louisiana – all of them spurred by federal subsidies and most supercharged by increased incentives in the Inflation Reduction Act intended to address global heating."

Carbon-capture gold rush an ‘insult’ to locals in emissions-hit Louisiana | US news | The Guardian

^^ "subsidies" / hydrogen fuel

"energy complex that creates hydrogen with little to no emissions during production"
"Using technology called carbon capture and sequestration (CCS),"
Project-Overview (airproducts.com)

 

[kiddiedoc]

Where are all these charging stations going to be? If it takes 40 minutes to get to 40% how many chargers will be necessary…that is only like 12 every 8 hours.

"Charging has been pretty challenging," Farley said, adding that at one stop it took him 40 minutes to charge his truck's battery to just 40 percent. "It was a really good reality check—the challenges of what our customers go through."

So here's the middle ground (in which my family currently resides):

EV for commuting/hopping around town/short trips

ICE for long trips/vacation/etc

Obviously, that only works for people with 2+ vehicles, but it puts a good chunk of the population in the EV camp.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Based on your knowledge, Is this accurate at date / $16 per kg ( / 0.264 gal) ? And if you happen to know, what is the avg miles per kg ?

What Are Hydrogen Cars? (jdpower.com)

"Hydrogen cars are still quite pricey, so they belong to the premium segment of the automotive market. These vehicles start at $50,000.

As the industry is young, the fuel cost is also not cheap. One kilogram of hydrogen gas costs about $16."

Likely. Hydrogen is currently more expensive than gasoline. However hydrogen has higher energy density than Li-ion or even fossil fuels. It just requires pressurization. If you’re going to do math you need to properly equate things Ronald.

Since you only comprehend marketing information here is a fuel cell company. Also since you ARE interested about the planet … riiiiiiiight?…. as I pointed out nuke powered electrolysis to FCEVs are zero emission from end to end.

Hydrogen Fuel Cell vs Lithium Ion – The Future of Transport - AMS Composite Cylinders.

Hydrogen fuel cells have an energy to weight ratio ten times greater than lithium-ion batteries. This means that hydrogen powered vehicles have the potential to offer much greater range, while being lighter.

In addition, whereas lithium batteries have a limited lifespan and need to be replaced, fuel cells do not degrade in the same way. They continue to produce energy as long as the fuel source is present, which can significant environmental benefits over a normal working lifespan.

 

[NorthDallas40]

So here's the middle ground (in which my family currently resides):

EV for commuting/hopping around town/short trips

ICE for long trips/vacation/etc

Obviously, that only works for people with 2+ vehicles, but it puts a good chunk of the population in the EV camp.

That makes sense. The reality is currently only ICE vehicles enable long distance traveling with any time efficiency and route choice flexibility.

 

[NorthDallas40]

As a marketer, how are you going to convince the rest of America to follow the lead and recommendations of Calif (at a current hydro $ > than current petrol $) ?

• There are only about 15,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles on U.S. roads right now, and all of them are in California. Meanwhile, EVs are out there in the millions.
• While electric cars are getting attention, with major manufacturers focusing on making them dominant by 2030, hydrogen vehicles are staying in the background for now.

"To quote the California Hydrogen Business Council, “Currently, a kilogram of hydrogen costs between $10 and $17 at California hydrogen stations, which equals about $5 to $8.50 per gallon of gasoline” to cover the same distance."

PUBLISHED: SEP 26, 2022
Hydrogen Cars: Everything You Need To Know (caranddriver.com)

I’ll follow your lead and selectively push only the positives while ignoring the negatives Ronald

 

[NorthDallas40]

If you want potential customers to switch from EV to hydrog, you ought to stop referring to them around others as cl-wns, and win them over with real, comparable facts --

a. "To date, about 2.5 million EVs have been sold in the U.S. By contrast, as of mid-2022, 15,000 or fewer hydrogen-powered vehicles can be found on U.S. roads. "

"To quote the California Hydrogen Business Council, “Currently, a kilogram of hydrogen costs between $10 and $17 at California hydrogen stations, which equals about $5 to $8.50 per gallon of gasoline” to cover the same distance."
Hydrogen Cars: Everything You Need To Know (caranddriver.com)

b. “Making the initial leap of faith into owning a BEV is proving to be very satisfying,” said Brent Gruber, senior director of global automotive at J.D. Power.
2022 U.S. Electric Vehicle Experience (EVX) Ownership Study | J.D. Power (jdpower.com)

I’m not trying to win you over. I’m openly attacking your idiotic hypocritical claims.

 

[NorthDallas40]

As hydrogen is produced from (light and heavier) carbon sources (e.g. fossil fuels) : What (factually or in your opinion) is the main, natural source of the "fossil fuels" ?


"However, unlike a battery-electric car, hydrogen-powered vehicles don't require charging. You refuel them with hydrogen gas, which is pumped in the same way as you would fill up conventional petrol or diesel. It takes several minutes to fill a full tank."
What Are Hydrogen Cars? (jdpower.com)

"Hydrogen can be produced from diverse, domestic resources. Currently, most hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, specifically natural gas. Electricity—from the grid or from renewable sources such as wind, solar, geothermal, or biomass—is also currently used to produce hydrogen. In the longer term, solar energy and biomass can be used more directly to generate hydrogen."

Hydrogen Resources | Department of Energy

Wow I really got under you skin with suggesting FCEVs replace your new Lord and savior BEVs huh Ronald. Newsflash: The same fossil fuel derived power for hydrogen generation that you’re attacking supplies the grid that powers your BEV chargers as there will never be enough unicorn farts to supply even the current number of EVs. Our grid is majority fossil fuel powered because base load power generation has to be from a 100% availability source and solar and wind cannot do that.

Now these new sea water hydrolysis plants that are prototypes today can be powered by the small scalable graphite nuke reactors that are also being prototyped. In fact those are much farther along in development and have been running for a few years now. Why didn’t you mention that part of the 800 lb gorilla solution since that was what it took to get zero emissions from start to finish Ronald?

Seawater-to-Hydrogen Tech Makes a New, Blue H2

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

Once again you trip over yourself and ignore the exact same negative that affects your most beloved BEV Ronald. Electricity generation to charge BEVs. You’ve done it continually in this discussion. Ignore the source of and growth amount required for the power grid generation capacity. You’re a demonstrated hypocrite.

Again where do I send that rent check for living in your head Ronald

 

[NorthDallas40]

@UT-Rex hey Ronald here educate yourself on your energy generation illiterate ass blind side. Small scale nuclear reactors expected to be available for public use this decade.

What are Small Modular Reactors (SMRs)?

 

[UT-Rex]

Where are all these charging stations going to be? If it takes 40 minutes to get to 40% how many chargers will be necessary…that is only like 12 every 8 hours.

"Charging has been pretty challenging," Farley said, adding that at one stop it took him 40 minutes to charge his truck's battery to just 40 percent. "It was a really good reality check—the challenges of what our customers go through."

Many Icers ( / Icemen ?) will not accept this as parallel (it is), but they ought to consider the fill-up 'inconveniences' their forefathers experienced back in the early years --

"Gas stations developed only after Henry Ford's affordable automobiles increased the number of motorcars on the road. More cars and greater demand for cars meant a greater demand for convenient stations for filling gasoline. Prior to this, the first places to sell gasoline were actually pharmacies. Motorists would purchase cans of gasoline and fill up their tanks themselves."

A Brief History of Self-Serve Gas Stations - Petroleum Service Company

 

[UT-Rex]

@UT-Rex hey Ronald here educate yourself on your energy generation illiterate ass blind side. Small scale nuclear reactors expected to be available for public use this decade.

What are Small Modular Reactors (SMRs)?

Sounds neato. In your opinion, How will these help or hurt hydrogen fuel cells ? Ah, ok, this sounds interesting.

For those in Nebraska who will like to ask: As-in, sea water only (or, possibly salt additives to regular water) ?

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs solve all the 800lb gorilla in the room issues. They use the same BEV final electric drive. They self charge and don’t tax the power grid. Power sea water electrolysis stations from the new micro scale graphite nuke reactors. Completely zero emissions from start to end.

 

[UT-Rex]

Wow I really got under you skin with suggesting FCEVs replace your new Lord and savior BEVs huh Ronald. Newsflash: The same fossil fuel derived power for hydrogen generation that you’re attacking supplies the grid that powers your BEV chargers as there will never be enough unicorn farts to supply even the current number of EVs. Our grid is majority fossil fuel powered because base load power generation has to be from a 100% availability source and solar and wind cannot do that.

Now these new sea water hydrolysis plants that are prototypes today can be powered by the small scalable graphite nuke reactors that are also being prototyped. In fact those are much farther along in development and have been running for a few years now. Why didn’t you mention that part of the 800 lb gorilla solution since that was what it took to get zero emissions from start to finish Ronald?

Seawater-to-Hydrogen Tech Makes a New, Blue H2



Once again you trip over yourself and ignore the exact same negative that affects your most beloved BEV Ronald. Electricity generation to charge BEVs. You’ve done it continually in this discussion. Ignore the source of and growth amount required for the power grid generation capacity. You’re a demonstrated hypocrite.

Again where do I send that rent check for living in your head Ronald

I recently spoke of level 2 chargers (currently at private houses) and earlier showed where Utilities speak boldy of their ability to fulfill future EV needs -- where did I ignore electricity generation ?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Sounds neato. In your opinion, How will these help or hurt hydrogen fuel cells ? Ah, ok, this sounds interesting.

For those in Nebraska who will like to ask: As-in, sea water only (or, possibly salt additives to regular water) ?

For those in Nebraska? Really? That’s your comeback Ronald? Well how does Nebraska get the fuel for their vehicles today and the natural gas to power their power plants?

And thank you so much for another brilliant example of your disingenuous responses and hypocrisy

 

[NorthDallas40]

I recently spoke of level 2 chargers (currently at private houses) and earlier showed where Utilities speak boldy of their ability to fulfill future EV needs -- where did I ignore electricity generation ?

Speaking of level 2 charging in your home doesn’t address the electricity feeding those chargers. Which is largely natural gas generated in the US.

Thank you very much for yet another example of your disingenuous stances and hypocrisy

 

[UT-Rex]

I’m not trying to win you over. I’m openly attacking your idiotic hypocritical claims.

Hypocritical claims ? In our family, a member has a level 2 charger at their house / the charging is simple / the car is recharged at night time / JD Powers claimed one of the automakers has a lifetime battery (I've not confirmed that) / hydrogen gas is more $ per gal than the cost of standard gasoline (and > than the typical current price equivalent of electricity).

 

[NorthDallas40]

Sounds neato. In your opinion, How will these help or hurt hydrogen fuel cells ? Ah, ok, this sounds interesting.

For those in Nebraska who will like to ask: As-in, sea water only (or, possibly salt additives to regular water) ?

Oh I couldn’t let this pass. Thank you very much for a beautiful illustration of your technology illiteracy. You wouldn’t take fresh water and turn it into sea water for electrolysis. Fresh water electrolysis exists today but fresh water is too valuable a resource. We actually covered that earlier in this discussion but I imagine you were too busy culling your EV marketing brochures to see it. The problem with sea water electrolysis has been the reactions corroding the electrodes. These new methods relieve that issue. And sea water is literally the most abundant resource on the planet, Ronald.

 

[UT-Rex]

I’ll follow your lead and selectively push only the positives while ignoring the negatives Ronald

In general, I can't really think of any real negatives for either gasoline or electricity << charging stations / home power chargers and fuel stations are quite plentiful in most populated areas and the costs for each type of typical vehicle is reasonable (ample price ranges / new and used for most consumers // both ice and EV public transportion is ample).

As for hydrogen, on the other hand, there are very very few filling stations in this country.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Hypocritical claims ? In our family, a member has a level 2 charger at their house / the charging is simple / the car is recharged at night time / JD Powers claimed one of the automakers has a lifetime battery (I've not confirmed that) / hydrogen gas is more $ per gal than the cost of standard gasoline (and > than the typical current price equivalent of electricity).

Your Nebraska claim just above is a wonderful example, Ronald

 

[NorthDallas40]

In general, I can't really think of any real negatives for either gasoline or electricity << charging stations / home power chargers and fuel stations are quite plentiful in most populated areas and the costs for each type of typical vehicle is reasonable.

As for hydrogen, on the other hand, there are very very few filling stations in this country.

There are huge issues on gasoline long term. And you don’t think on electricity generation. At all. That is abundantly clear.