Facts are facts - Kiffin is running off the talent

[AshG]

It really amazes me how, after everything we've seen and heard this off season, that everybody is still running around with total confidence in Kiffin. I guess some folks would rather lie to themselves than face reality.

I can't figure out if you are Tiny Yapper, Issues, or Ferrous Cranus. In the least, you provide a wonderful foil that reminds me of how glad I am to be an optimist.

I have confidence in Kiffin, yes. He has assembled a high-quality coaching staff. Whether or not I continue to have confidence will be determined by how well the team does in actual game situations and how he handles the next recruiting class. No one can pass judgment, good or bad, with any authority or intelligence until we see the body of work during the season.

So sit back and barb away. I'm learning quite a bit from the corroborating information you include in your posts to back up your arguments.

 

[tim]

5150 it really amazes me that you were more pleased with last year's off season's follies.

 

[sjt18]

EJAW- poison to the team and a non-contributor, shameful waste of talent... and the big WR CLK could have used if he hadn't been a head case

Sawtelle- injuries drove him out more than Kiffin

BJ- discussed way too much already

Morley- simply doesn't have the minimal level of self-discipline to allow someone the opportunity to baby sit him through a college career. At one point, a coach was meeting with him every morning to plan out his day and get him to class.

Creer- good talent but unwilling to put in the work... was being passed on the depth chart legitimately by 3* players

Preston Bailey- went from a 4* to 3* from what I understand because of questions regarding his commitment and work ethic, left the team on his own

Langley- 4* who quite obviously was overrated as neither the Kiffin's nor Chavis could get his potential out of him


The ONLY player out of these that would have impacted this season on the field is Morley. Even if BJ had started, he isn't good enough to have made the difference in wins/losses.

 

[sjt18]

Yeah, but that was when Bama was getting 3 stars and 2 stars, and had a schollie limit on those.

Nope. Bama is getting even better players now but if I remember correctly they avg'd something like #13 for the 4 years leading up to Shula's firing.

 

[General Jack]

I wouldn't mind having Ramon Foster or Myers back theoretically, at least to shore up depth on the O-line. But since they apparently didn't have the sack to deal with life after the country club... good riddance.

 

[Lord Vader]

EJAW- poison to the team and a non-contributor, shameful waste of talent... and the big WR CLK could have used if he hadn't been a head case

Sawtelle- injuries drove him out more than Kiffin

BJ- discussed way too much already

Morley- simply doesn't have the minimal level of self-discipline to allow someone the opportunity to baby sit him through a college career. At one point, a coach was meeting with him every morning to plan out his day and get him to class.

Creer- good talent but unwilling to put in the work... was being passed on the depth chart legitimately by 3* players

Preston Bailey- went from a 4* to 3* from what I understand because of questions regarding his commitment and work ethic, left the team on his own

Langley- 4* who quite obviously was overrated as neither the Kiffin's nor Chavis could get his potential out of him


The ONLY player out of these that would have impacted this season on the field is Morley. Even if BJ had started, he isn't good enough to have made the difference in wins/losses.

what about Johnson and Myers on the o-line?

 

[Vol Catdaddy]

I love Coach Kiffin he doing what a coach is suppose to do! The people that want to be there they are going to work their A** off. The only thing I would have done is probably wouldn't have been as hard the O and D lineman just a bit because of Depth that's it! Love Coach Kiffin. Trust me we are going to have our day we went 5-7 and got a 10 ranking on with recruits :rock:

 

[justingroves]

what about Johnson and Myers on the o-line?

Myers didn't start in the JV game

 

[sjt18]

The OP btw has merit.

I think it is unfortunately likely that many who now praise Kiffin will quickly lose their patience when immediate gratification doesn't occur.

I personally agree that Kiffin had to set a high standard. When that happens, you find out who the duds and prima donnas are... they jump ship. There will probably be a short term price... though the new S&C program will mitigate that some by bringing up the performance levels of some of the lower recruits (witness USCe's competitiveness physically while getting mostly 2-3* players).

But facts are 2010 sets up to be a rough year with most of the team's talent... and probably starters being Fr and Sophs. I believe Kiffin's plan is a 3 or 4 year program. There's enough talent to compete this year barring injuries then there's an even bigger rebuilding project on the horizon.

My hope though (not blind faith at all as 5150 suggests) is that the discipline he's implementing will keep those 4-5* players on the team. The attrition of top shelf talent with Coach Fulmer was pretty high. IMO, Coker was the most talented player to pass through UT this decade... but he had discipline issues that Coach Fulmer tried, and failed, to help him through.

There is still a good possibility that CLK will fail. It may not work at UT. But I'll be like I was when Fulmer was in trouble. I'll hope for the best while trying to stay reasonable enough to be prepared for the worst.

 

[volstuff37641]

If they had so much talent, why did we have a losing season the last 2 out of three years. It wouldn't all the coaches fault!

well,i wholeheartley disagree with you on it not being the coaches fault.if we had ant coaching up of the players,plus playing some of the best instead of setting them on the bench in favor of his (boy's),we wouldn't have had 2 loseing seasons.lol::the_finger::neener:

 

[sjt18]

what about Johnson and Myers on the o-line?

To this point neither had been anything but disappointments under either staff. Johnson came out of Chicago with big time potential... and did nothing.

I wish all of them had been the kind of players that could make it under the new, higher standard for players... no question. But it isn't like any of them were developing into AA under Fulmer... It appears that CLK just pushed them to the decision point whereas they would have just rode their scholarships out under Fulmer... or worse be promoted by seniority and prevent better players from getting on the field.

 

[armchairvol]

Some of Kiffin's moves, or non-moves, strike me as a little odd. He surely could have said or done something to encourage Coleman--but apparently did not. I guess I've forgotten what a wonderful player the guy in front of Coleman is--not!! If Kiffin and Reaves can turn the Crompinator into a good QB this year, then I'll eat crow on this board, but I'm not expecting to.

I also found it odd that he would run off Sawtelle. Maybe Sawtelle is just lousy--I haven't seen him. But 1) we lack depth on the OL; 2) Sawtelle is still just a soph, yes? and 3), the kid just came off of double shoulder surgery--I'm sure he WAS tentative in the spring; who wouldn't be after having both shoulders operated on? The coaches get paid the big bucks to make these personnel decisions, and we shall see how they work out on the football field...

 

[sjt18]

Coleman seems to have made his decision before giving CLK a chance to change his mind. He got peeved that Kiffin dared cancel an appointment with him twice, went over his head, didn't get satisfaction, then very publicly quit.

CLK wasn't perfect through the whole ordeal... but he didn't make BJ quit. BJ did.

 

[justingroves]

I also found it odd that he would run off Sawtelle. Maybe Sawtelle is just lousy--I haven't seen him. But 1) we lack depth on the OL; 2) Sawtelle is still just a soph, yes? and 3), the kid just came off of double shoulder surgery--I'm sure he WAS tentative in the spring; who wouldn't be after having both shoulders operated on? The coaches get paid the big bucks to make these personnel decisions, and we shall see how they work out on the football field...

Sawtelle was physically unable to play football anymore. Both shoulders had been rebuilt. Kiffin didn't run him off

 

[justingroves]

IMO, Coker was the most talented player to pass through UT this decade... but he had discipline issues that Coach Fulmer tried, and failed, to help him through.

Coker over Banks?

 

[Lord Vader]

weird. Rivals recruiting says otherwise.

I compiled some stats about the Alabama, Auburn, and Tennessee programs from the years you are referring to (2002-2007). I found some of the numbers interesting especially the star power of those program's recruits during this 6 years span...

Alabama
5stars- 3
4stars- 38
3stars- 82
2stars- 20
1star- 0
0stars- 0

Record:
Overall= 43-33
vs. Auburn= 0-6
vs Tenn= 3-3

9 win seasons- 2

Auburn
5stars- 4
4stars- 53
3stars- 59
2stars- 42
1star- 1
0stars- 3

Record:
Overall= 59-18
vs. Alabama= 6-0
vs. Tenn= 3-0

9 win seasons- 5

Tennessee
5stars- 15 hmy:
4stars- 64
3stars- 58
2stars- 16
1star- 0
0stars- 0

Record:
Overall= 53-25
vs. Alabama = 3-3
vs. Auburn = 0-3

9 win seasons- 4

 

[Lord Vader]

IMO, Coker was the most talented player to pass through UT this decade...

:unsure:

 

[sjt18]

Not sure what you mean Lord Vader. Feel free to have an opposing opinion but you are blind if you couldn't see the extraordinary physical gifts Coker was blessed with. He had good power, great vision, could cut on a dime, and had the speed to out run everyone on virtually every D he ever faced.

 

[Lord Vader]

Not sure what you mean Lord Vader. Feel free to have an opposing opinion but you are blind if you couldn't see the extraordinary physical gifts Coker was blessed with. He had good power, great vision, could cut on a dime, and had the speed to out run everyone on virtually every D he ever faced.

Ok, hold on a sec here. Are we just talking about the UT players who couldn't cut it or are we talking about all the UT players this decade?

 

[General Jack]

I compiled some stats about the Alabama, Auburn, and Tennessee programs from the years you are referring to (2002-2007). I found some of the numbers interesting especially the star power of those program's recruits during this 6 years span...

Alabama
5stars- 3
4stars- 38
3stars- 82
2stars- 20
1star- 0
0stars- 0

Record:
Overall= 43-33
vs. Auburn= 0-6
vs Tenn= 3-3

9 win seasons- 2

Auburn
5stars- 4
4stars- 53
3stars- 59
2stars- 42
1star- 1
0stars- 3

Record:
Overall= 59-18
vs. Alabama= 6-0
vs. Tenn= 3-0

9 win seasons- 5

Tennessee
5stars- 15 hmy:
4stars- 64
3stars- 58
2stars- 16
1star- 0
0stars- 0

Record:
Overall= 53-25
vs. Alabama = 3-3
vs. Auburn = 0-3

9 win seasons- 4

Are these the recruiting class rankings from those years? If so, the wins don't really correlate with the recruiting stats... i.e. the 2002 recruiting class probably had minimal impact on the 2002 W-L record cause those guys were true FR. And the stars from Auburn's great 2004 team (namely Cadillac and R Brown) wouldn't be represented in the recruiting stats because they were in the 2000 class.

It is interesting to see how far ahead of those teams we were in recruiting rankings... and the relative lack of success on the field. 15 5 stars, what waste of talent. Half of those guys probably never made a meaningful contribution or were kicked off the team.

 

[sjt18]

Ok, hold on a sec here. Are we just talking about the UT players who couldn't cut it or are we talking about all the UT players this decade?

On pure, raw talent alone, it is my honest opinion that Coker is tops in both.

There's nothing to objectively prove it... just my subjective opinion based on his flashes of brilliance before getting canned. He was a threat on every play from any point on the field. I believe he still holds the UT record for the longest run from scrimmage.

 

[Lord Vader]

Are these the recruiting class rankings from those years? If so, the wins don't really correlate with the recruiting stats...

It is interesting to see how far ahead of those teams we were in recruiting rankings... and the relative lack of success on the field. 15 5 stars, what waste of talent. Half of those guys probably never made a meaningful contribution or were kicked off the team.

Yea I realize the stats don't correlate. I was just saying...

Here's the 15 5star players...
2002- James Banks, Mondre Dickerson, Brandon Jeffries, Jonathon Mapu, Gerald Riggs Jr.
2003- Robert Meachem
2004- Jesse Mahelona, Albert Toeaina
2005- Demetrice Morley
2006- Walter Fisher
2007- Eric Berry, Chris Donald, Kenny O'Neal, Brent Vinson, Ben Martin

 

[Lord Vader]

On pure, raw talent alone, it is my honest opinion that Coker is tops in both.

I'll take the easy answer and say Eric Berry. He is the highest rated CB EVER on Rivals and has done nothing but set records in college. There was an article on ESPN a couple of weeks ago about how Berry is better at his position than any other player in CFB is at their's, and it isn't even close...:good!:

 

[MDBJJC]

Why. So much ESPN love for Berry suddenly. They were the guys that were into that OSU dude.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[justingroves]

Not sure what you mean Lord Vader. Feel free to have an opposing opinion but you are blind if you couldn't see the extraordinary physical gifts Coker was blessed with. He had good power, great vision, could cut on a dime, and had the speed to out run everyone on virtually every D he ever faced.

Coker never seemed to produce against the good teams but again he never really had much of an opportunity. His catches against UGA and UF and the kick return against Bama were all good plays.

Banks was a monster at WR though.