George Floyd was actually an evil man.

[rjd970]

I agree, in the end - I don't think Chauvin intended lasting injury (though he certainly didn't show any noticeable regard for Floyd's safety.) Too bad (for him) that intent in negligence isn't important. That and a police SOP that I assume allowed for chokes may be what gets this knocked from murder to manslaughter.

The charge should have never been murder in any degree. That is just my non-lawyer opinion.

Manslaughter sounds more like what happened. Or as somebody else said, negligent homicide.

Neither Floyd nor Chauvin are blameless.

 

[lawgator1]

An underlying issue here is how much importance an officer should put on a suspect's claim that "I can't breathe" or "these handcuffs hurt!" or "ow my arm" to change what they are doing. People feign such things all the time, or at least exaggerate them. If cops "let up" in the wrong circumstance that can have a bad outcome.

They are between a rock and a hard place. Let up and have the suspect scurry away or get physical control; don't react and with 20/20 hindsight an argument can be made the suspect was telling the truth and could not breathe.

 

[McDad]

An underlying issue here is how much importance an officer should put on a suspect's claim that "I can't breathe" or "these handcuffs hurt!" or "ow my arm" to change what they are doing. People feign such things all the time, or at least exaggerate them. If cops "let up" in the wrong circumstance that can have a bad outcome.

They are between a rock and a hard place. Let up and have the suspect scurry away or get physical control; don't react and with 20/20 hindsight an argument can be made the suspect was telling the truth and could not breathe.

This is a well thought perspective. I would offer this in addition: most reasonable people can understand how some suspects are looking to create an opportunity to get the jump on an officer. I think most reasonable people can distinguish between severity of abrasions on the wrist from tight cuffs to suffocating someone who is already restrained.

 

[hog88]

Derek Chauvin trial juror dismissed over concerns George Floyd rioters could attack his home

I'd use/say whatever it took to be excused from that jury.

 

[AM64]

You're actually more likely to die from positional asphyxiation from having your hands/feet bound at the same time. It simply comes down to people who take narcotics/have comorbidities/mental illness mixed together are more likely to die from fights/restraints than normal people.

I didn't know that, but it seems like for general safety of everyone except the detainee full restraint makes sense when compliance is an issue. For whatever reason I'm not a fan of the police (probably just my extremely bad case of anti authority genes), but there are times everyone has to recognize that he/she doesn't control the situation, and that's the generally the case when cops are involved. De-escalation is the process that makes sense, but that requires both sides. A bit of education for some of our population would make sense, but generally that seems to be the part of the population most resistant to education (except all about "victimization").

 

[AM64]

GF had drugs in his system. Got it.

If Chauvin hadn’t had his knee on GF back, or had Chauvin let him up or moved off him when he said he couldn’t breathe, would GF still be alive?

I don’t know, but by any reasonable standard it isn’t unfair to say Chauvin contributed to his death. It further isn’t unreasonable to assume had Chauvin moved him in a sitting position or gotten off him while he was begging he would still be alive.

Floyd wasn’t a good man, got it. But at that moment neither was Chauvin.

So if Chauvin hadn't held Floyd down and he smashed through a window and slashed his neck on the glass or ran into traffic and was hit by a car or if he grabbed or harmed a bystander, would Chauvin have been guilty of failing to keep Floyd from harming bystanders? What if Floyd managed to grab a police weapon? Sorry, Floyd made a bad choice and got what he asked for.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Derek Chauvin trial juror dismissed over concerns George Floyd rioters could attack his home

Good reason.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

This is a well thought perspective. I would offer this in addition: most reasonable people can understand how some suspects are looking to create an opportunity to get the jump on an officer. I think most reasonable people can distinguish between severity of abrasions on the wrist from tight cuffs to suffocating someone who is already restrained.

Don't encourage him. It's still LG after all.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

I'd use/say whatever it took to be excused from that jury.

I always get excused. I just tell them i have no faith in the legal system. Lawyers just want to win. They don't care about truth.

 

[AM64]

I always get excused. I just tell them i have no faith in the legal system. Lawyers just want to win. They don't care about truth.

I like that. Doesn't even require a lie. You only have to be on one case lasting a few days to really understand. After about the fifth trip out of the courtroom, you start realizing there's a lot of stuff jurors never hear, and it's all about how effective each side is at keeping information hidden. Winning is all about controlling the argument and the available information, and certainly not about any form of analysis and conclusion that we know as the scientific process.

 

[VolStrom]

I always get excused. I just tell them i have no faith in the legal system. Lawyers just want to win. They don't care about truth.

I must look or sound too honest. I've been summoned to jury duty 3 times, the first 2 times I had to sit on 2 trials each time and even got sequestered overnight for one of them. The last time was in December and I only had to show up one day and after sitting in a room for an hour the judge came in and dismissed everyone.

 

[golfballs]

Derek Chauvin trial juror dismissed over concerns George Floyd rioters could attack his home

Why does this have any impact on his ability to decide if Chauvin is a murderer or not?

 

[golfballs]

 

[AM64]

I must look or sound too honest. I've been summoned to jury duty 3 times, the first 2 times I had to sit on 2 trials each time and even got sequestered overnight for one of them. The last time was in December and I only had to show up one day and after sitting in a room for an hour the judge came in and dismissed everyone.

I was sequestered a week. At that point the offense gave it up and the defense called the first witness, and we were almost immediately herded out of the courtroom again. We came back, the witness was gone, and the defense was asking for a dismissal. Shortly after, there were closing arguments and we went back to deliberate. My thought was "how did this farce even make it to trial?" We wrapped it up in less than 30 minutes - the prosecutor had proven absolutely nothing except there were probably some factions in city hall that were bent on destroying each other - the case was all about property theft and insurance fraud believe it or not.

 

[AM64]

Why does this have any impact on his ability to decide if Chauvin is a murderer or not?

It is possible to subvert justice if a mob is left free to dispense it's own justice against the legal process. Think about the possibility of a trial in the federal courthouse in Portland last summer. It's insane to think a juror might have to go from juror to something like witness protection because some violent faction has a differing view on guilt and innocence. I'm completely convinced that a matter can be tried in the court of public opinion more easily today than at any time in history and that most of us have less confidence than ever in the justice system.

 

[VolStrom]

I was sequestered a week. At that point the offense gave it up and the defense called the first witness, and we were almost immediately herded out of the courtroom again. We came back, the witness was gone, and the defense was asking for a dismissal. Shortly after, there were closing arguments and we went back to deliberate. My thought was "how did this farce even make it to trial?" We wrapped it up in less than 30 minutes - the prosecutor had proven absolutely nothing except there were probably some factions in city hall that were bent on destroying each other - the case was all about property theft and insurance fraud believe it or not.

One of the trials I was on when we found the defendant not guilty the prosecutor got pissed and ranted at us like we were little kids. He didn't prove his case and he's lucky I was done being on a jury after that rant.

 

[hUTch2002]

Having an opinion on guilt doesn't mean he isn't receiving due process. Nothing is being removed

I’m not saying it is but none of us have the evidence. I really don’t get why you’re stuck on this but I’ll leave it to you to work through.

 

[rjd970]

So if Chauvin hadn't held Floyd down and he smashed through a window and slashed his neck on the glass or ran into traffic and was hit by a car or if he grabbed or harmed a bystander, would Chauvin have been guilty of failing to keep Floyd from harming bystanders? What if Floyd managed to grab a police weapon? Sorry, Floyd made a bad choice and got what he asked for.

What?

I’m talking about after he was handcuffed and on the ground. At that point he was in Chauvin’s custody. He isn’t smashing windows and grabbing bystanders after he is cuffed. When Floyd said he couldn’t breathe there is no reason Chauvin couldn’t have gotten off of him. Leave him on the ground, or put him in a sitting position with cuffs on.

If Chauvin and his buddies on scene can’t handle a cuffed man laying on the ground or sitting down then quite frankly they should never be put in a position to do so.

And I don’t want to hear the hindsight 20/20 BS. That is just common sense and basic competence to handle a cuffed guy already on the ground.

 

[AM64]

What?

I’m talking about after he was handcuffed and on the ground. At that point he was in Chauvin’s custody. He isn’t smashing windows and grabbing bystanders after he is cuffed. When Floyd said he couldn’t breathe there is no reason Chauvin couldn’t have gotten off of him. Leave him on the ground, or put him in a sitting position with cuffs on.

If Chauvin and his buddies on scene can’t handle a cuffed man laying on the ground or sitting down then quite frankly they should never be put in a position to do so.

And I don’t want to hear the hindsight 20/20 BS. That is just common sense and basic competence to handle a cuffed guy already on the ground.

Floyd's hands were cuffed but that didn't mean his feet were out of order for running, kicking, etc. Cuffed hands wouldn't prevent him from rolling into traffic. This was my point about cuffing ankles, too, and the counter to that was that both hands and feet cuffed is more dangerous than holding him down. But, hey, nobody in custody ever lies, so "I can't breathe" would never equal let me slip a bit and I'm gonna run. You know the old saying about you can only make a first impression once? Floyd did set the initial impression, and it set the tone ... and not in his favor.

 

[Wireless1]

What?

I’m talking about after he was handcuffed and on the ground. At that point he was in Chauvin’s custody. He isn’t smashing windows and grabbing bystanders after he is cuffed. When Floyd said he couldn’t breathe there is no reason Chauvin couldn’t have gotten off of him. Leave him on the ground, or put him in a sitting position with cuffs on.

If Chauvin and his buddies on scene can’t handle a cuffed man laying on the ground or sitting down then quite frankly they should never be put in a position to do so.

DOuble post

 

[Wireless1]

What?

I’m talking about after he was handcuffed and on the ground. At that point he was in Chauvin’s custody. He isn’t smashing windows and grabbing bystanders after he is cuffed. When Floyd said he couldn’t breathe there is no reason Chauvin couldn’t have gotten off of him. Leave him on the ground, or put him in a sitting position with cuffs on.

If Chauvin and his buddies on scene can’t handle a cuffed man laying on the ground or sitting down then quite frankly they should never be put in a position to do so.

And I don’t want to hear the hindsight 20/20 BS. That is just common sense and basic competence to handle a cuffed guy already on the ground.

AIR George was in the backseat of a patrol car, claimed he couldn't breath and while being removed displayed a low level of resistance. George was 6'4" and 223 just convinced you to get him out of a secure location, is starting to exhibit signs of drug usage and you are 5'9" 185#........how secure do you now feel with a gathering crowd that's displaying a growing level of tension......this is a very large man, who at any moment go into a drug induced rage......how do you handle that? In hindsight all of us (cops included) would have done something different but under the circumstances they did what they were trained to do......and MSP will probably burn as a result because somebody will be unhappy regardless of the jury verdict.

 

[lawgator1]

This is a well thought perspective. I would offer this in addition: most reasonable people can understand how some suspects are looking to create an opportunity to get the jump on an officer. I think most reasonable people can distinguish between severity of abrasions on the wrist from tight cuffs to suffocating someone who is already restrained.

I think the counter argument is that the officer had assistance from other officers, that they had him under control for a significant part of the 8 minutes, and that at some point during that process it became punitive, not legitimately a need for use of that force. So there is another perspective, right or wrong.

 

[rjd970]

AIR George was in the backseat of a patrol car, claimed he couldn't breath and while being removed displayed a low level of resistance. George was 6'4" and 223 just convinced you to get him out of a secure location, is starting to exhibit signs of drug usage and you are 5'9" 185#........how secure do you now feel with a gathering crowd that's displaying a growing level of tension......this is a very large man, who at any moment go into a drug induced rage......how do you handle that? In hindsight all of us (cops included) would have done something different but under the circumstances they did what they were trained to do......and MSP will probably burn as a result because somebody will be unhappy regardless of the jury verdict.

He was handcuffed and on the ground when he said he couldn’t breathe.

Handcuffed.

On the ground.

For several minutes.

You guys are acting like he was this major threat if Chauvin didn’t take his knee off his neck while laying prone on the ground. He can’t just pop up from that position in those restraints.

Floyd is not without fault, but Chauvin shouldn’t get a pass for being a heartless/stupid **** either, especially when the man died.

 

[VolStrom]

He was handcuffed and on the ground when he said he couldn’t breathe.

Handcuffed.

On the ground.

For several minutes.

You guys are acting like he was this major threat if Chauvin didn’t take his knee off his neck while laying prone on the ground. He can’t just pop up from that position in those restraints.

Floyd is not without fault, but Chauvin shouldn’t get a pass for being a heartless/stupid **** either, especially when the man died.

Chauvin was a typical Billy Bad Ass cop, you will respect my authoritie. He needs to pay a price for his actions.

 

[Wireless1]

He was handcuffed and on the ground when he said he couldn’t breathe.

Handcuffed.

On the ground.

For several minutes.

You guys are acting like he was this major threat if Chauvin didn’t take his knee off his neck while laying prone on the ground. He can’t just pop up from that position in those restraints.

Floyd is not without fault, but Chauvin shouldn’t get a pass for being a heartless/stupid **** either, especially when the man died.

George stated he couldn't breath while setting up in the back of the police car, that's why they moved him to the pavement. Had he not made the statement, he'd have been in jail before the 8 minutes were up.