HBO's "Game of Thrones"

[jakez4ut]

Edit: hang on I don't think we're on the same page.

I'm talking about Dany didn't send out any scouts or do any scouting in the previous attack, and walked right into the ambush. To me that was really, really stupid and bad writing.

what previous attack? the one with the iron fleet when the dragon got killed?

they were going back to Dragonstone....they weren't attacking anyone....i'm not sure what you're talking about. there wasn't a need to scout Dragonstone. that's why it was a such a good ambush tactic......

 

[jakez4ut]

I think maybe we need to suspend reality a bit when discussing a fantasy series... It's almost a little funny that we are debating the battle tactics of a woman that can't be burned who rides a dragon. Not to mention: those scorpions were awfully accurate/effective at such as distance last episode to be huge rudimentary crossbows with hand-forged bolts.

true.

 

[drvenner]

Someone (maybe here) pointed out that D&D fell in love with Cersei, and after last night that's PAINFULLY obvious.

Like they knew they had to kill her, cause there wasn't anywhere to go with the story if she wins. But they did it in the most un-GoT/Martin type way possible, and that is the biggest travesty of the entire series. The ending given to Cersei.

They think they did something poetic, but what they really did was again ruin the character. She is one of the strongest actors in the entire series and you turned her hardened character into a defenseless/powerless woman. Crying for her brother to save her...it wasn't poetic at all it wasn't beautiful and served no deeper meaning. They took an easy path because they did't have the ability to think of a better way. AND THE BOOK PROPHECY GAVE THEM ONE, ugh...that's so frustrating, Jaime or Tyrion should have had that moment.

Spot on.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

what previous attack? the one with the iron fleet when the dragon got killed?

they were going back to Dragonstone....they weren't attacking anyone....i'm not sure what you're talking about. there wasn't a need to scout Dragonstone. that's why it was a such a good ambush tactic......

Almost true...they were heading to King's Landing. Euron did ambush them at Dragonstone though and captured Missandei Iron fleet goes to King's Landing and Dany & survivors at Dragonstone where she planed to attack, was convinced to simply talk and then saw Missandei executed.

Still in almost every single other "hostile waters" type of situation a scout has been sent ahead.

 

[drvenner]

They just wanted to make sure you hate Daenerys. They showed her character less respect than the showed Cercei. They went way out of their way to humanize that evil rhymes with bunt at the end, and conversely went way out of their way to dehumanize Dany and make you hate her.

They humanized Cersei and dehumanized Dany. Humanizing Cersei shows me that they did fall in love with her character. I think they thought it was a clever twist. I still think it's lazy and hollow.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

what previous attack? the one with the iron fleet when the dragon got killed?

they were going back to Dragonstone....they weren't attacking anyone....i'm not sure what you're talking about. there wasn't a need to scout Dragonstone. that's why it was a such a good ambush tactic......

Sorry I'm getting my episodes mixed up. No it wasn't an attack, I was getting it confused. I still think it was silly to show the dragons so easily done away with during the ambush with 2 dragons and then the next battle they can't hit water falling out of a boat, and Dany's lack of counter-measures (i.e. how about you fly behind the fleet and roast them?)

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Almost true...they were heading to King's Landing. Euron did ambush them at Dragonstone though and captured Missandei Iron fleet goes to King's Landing and Dany & survivors at Dragonstone where she planed to attack, was convinced to simply talk and then saw Missandei executed.

Still in almost every single other "hostile waters" type of situation a scout has been sent ahead.

This.

 

[jakez4ut]

Almost true...they were heading to King's Landing. Euron did ambush them at Dragonstone though and captured Missandei Iron fleet goes to King's Landing and Dany & survivors at Dragonstone where she planed to attack, was convinced to simply talk and then saw Missandei executed.

Still in almost every single other "hostile waters" type of situation a scout has been sent ahead.

ok, i though they were going to dragonstone before KL.....and while i can buy that...i'm still not sure how hostile those particular waters would have been considered (not at all apparently...) given the proximity to Dragonstone.

anyway....like i said, my only intention was to discern the difference in her tactics from one episode to the next....being ambushed vs. planning an attack...especially now that they know the chief weapon, and it's limitations.

 

[zeppelin128]

Truth about humanity is not always the best approach when writing A FANTASY novel.

But isn't that what makes GOT stand out? I know it did for me, but it's all a matter of personal preference.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

I think maybe we need to suspend reality a bit when discussing a fantasy series... It's almost a little funny that we are debating the battle tactics of a woman that can't be burned who rides a dragon. Not to mention: those scorpions were awfully accurate/effective at such as distance last episode to be huge rudimentary crossbows with hand-forged bolts.

I think that's part of the problem. I have no problem suspending reality, but I expect the show/movie to adhere to the reality they have created. And it's not so much they violated their reality but they did make it really, really convenient that things happened one way one episode and then almost completely different the next.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

I think that's part of the problem. I have no problem suspending reality, but I expect the show/movie to adhere to the reality they have created. And it's not so much they violated their reality but they did make it really, really convenient that things happened one way one episode and then almost completely different the next.

Nailed it. You spent the first 4 or 5 seasons making us fall in love with rich characters who have human driven motivations that are so easy to relate to, then you pluck them from us almost at random. "Life is cruel, and unpredictable" hard lesson, but one that drives the show into even more fandom.

Last few seasons they just kind of removed that, even though they continue to pluck characters it's almost like giving each their "moment" before doing so.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

Yes, it has been foreshadowed. But, I think some people are not grasping how big a leap it is to from crucifying slavers to murdering thousands upon thousands of innocents. She talked about how their mercy was not a weakness but it was a strength for future generations. She cared very deeply for the common people. Granted, that was in Essos. But, she just went mad and killed em all because she felt unloved? Still seems out of character to me.

They don't know Dany's point of view because they have not read the books. That is why it is so easy for show watchers to buy this hideous transformation into a baby killing freak.

 

[n_huffhines]

I think maybe we need to suspend reality a bit when discussing a fantasy series... It's almost a little funny that we are debating the battle tactics of a woman that can't be burned who rides a dragon. Not to mention: those scorpions were awfully accurate/effective at such as distance last episode to be huge rudimentary crossbows with hand-forged bolts.

I totally disagree. Whether a movie is fantasy or based in reality, the laws of physics should still apply (unless we have an explanation as to why they don't) and we want smart characters/writing.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

George R. R. Martin said it himself in an interview (paraphrasing here)

"When you write a murder mystery and you plan for it to be the butler, but fans figure it out before you finish the story that it's the butler. Changing the story to make it the nurse doesn't help the story, all the clues you planted throughout that it was the butler are now dead ends."

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

So assuming that Danynis killed next episode, and not by having Drogon shot down under her, what does Drogon do?

• Die of grief? (We saw him sympathetically curl himself around Dany when Jorah died.)
• Flame everyone out, and he’s the winner?
• Accept Jon or Tyrion as a new rider, assuming that either of them survive?
• Go hunting with Ghost and Nymeria?

That is a great question, and the one that has been on my mind all day.

 

[TheDeeble]

Yeah but that's a "why can't storm troopers shoot straight?" type of complaint. There has to be some allowance for 'plot armor' in a fantasy show like this. What they did with Jamie's character this season is more troubling. It didn't follow a consistent pattern of development.

If the Storm Troopers were frickin snipers in one battle then became Cat Ballou that misses a barn, I'd agree. But the Storm Troopers were lousy shots every time.

They sniped Rhaegar with 3 shots. Drogon takes down the entire Iron Fleet and King's Landing with a few passes and they barely get off any shots.

 

[Rishvol]

George R. R. Martin said it himself in an interview (paraphrasing here)

"When you write a murder mystery and you plan for it to be the butler, but fans figure it out before you finish the story that it's the butler. Changing the story to make it the nurse doesn't help the story, all the clues you planted throughout that it was the butler are now dead ends."

Which is what feels like D&D did

 

[TheDeeble]

So assuming that Danynis Dany is killed next episode, and not by having Drogon shot down under her, what does Drogon do? *My phone is incapable of dealing with GoT names

• Die of grief? (We saw him sympathetically curl himself around Dany when Jorah died.)
• Flame everyone out, and he’s the winner?
• Accept Jon or Tyrion as a new rider, assuming that either of them survive?
• Go hunting with Ghost and Nymeria?

If they stuck with the books, I think dragons can only have one rider. If so, nobody is riding him. Or maybe it's one rider at a time. I'd have to re-read the books again, but the one rider thing was in there.

 

[TheDeeble]

I totally disagree. Whether a movie is fantasy or based in reality, the laws of physics should still apply (unless we have an explanation as to why they don't) and we want smart characters/writing.

I agree. Certain things fit within the context of a show, but there are lines that can be crossed where something is unbelievable or just dumb.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

The fact that there's nothing beautiful in life is likely what he is trying to say.

I know what he is trying to say, but that is just as flawed a worldview as happy go lucky, rainbows and unicorns farting fairy dust fairytale. I guess I expected more nuance than this from such a talent, he promised "bittersweet"...he is a f'n liar..this is just ugly and bitter.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

Which is what feels like D&D did

D&D even said as much in post episode interview recaps. "We wanted it to be unexpected."


The most "hollywood" thing any show/movie/script/story can ever do is push to do something simply to do it. Perfect example, Jon Snow going after the Night King and ending up in that weird standoff with the dragon. There was no motivation other than they wanted it to be unexpected that Arya would deal the death blow, not Jon Snow. So you dead end Jon Snow in that moment because you didn't actually give the story/character real motivation.

"We want the audience to think he has failed so they won't see Arya coming."

It's why fans started inserting the theory that Jon distracted the Dragon so Arya could get by, it's why the fans of the show are constantly looking for motivations the writers didn't even think through themselves. My favorite writers/directors/editors all ask themselves "why" about everything their characters are doing. The story creates itself if you create good character motivation, and there are less holes to fill in later.

 

[BowlBrother85]

I know what he is trying to say, but that is just as flawed a worldview as happy go lucky, rainbows and unicorns farting fairy dust fairytale. I guess I expected more nuance than this from such a talent, he promised "bittersweet"...he is a f'n liar..this is just ugly and bitter.

While Drogon was going scorched earth, I was looking for some close up shots of Dany's face. I think it could have helped sell the bitterness if we had gotten a better sense of what she was going through while this was taking place. We didn't get that and instead, it was just underneath shots of the dragon passes and the misery and death being created below. I don't have a problem with being ugly and bitter but you have to show both the how and the why. They cheated a bit by not focusing on Dany.

 

[twoffo]

Opening scene from next week: Deep in the rubble we see a mortally wounded Qyburn struggling to hook up the Franken-machine into someone’s battered and broken body. He collapses but it is unclear whether he succeeded.

Later scene: Dany is visited by Lady Stoneheart, Cersei-version.

 

[JCP201]

But isn't that what makes GOT stand out? I know it did for me, but it's all a matter of personal preference.

I thought they did a really good job last night showing that there are no winners in war. The shots of the lady and little girl (along with Arya) were very well done.

 

[BowlBrother85]

I have to think that Tyrion is the next piece of Drogon toast (Peter Dinklage is the only cast member to appear in all 73 episodes - and he gets paid $1 million per)... God knows what will go on with the North now. They have some serious thinking to do.