Is secession the answer?

#601
#601
I think my parents picked a good time for me to be born and I'll probably die about the end of our country too. We have a really F'd up country and if something doesn't change we'll be ruled by the Chinese a decade or two from now.
 
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#603
#603
AshG said:
Yes. I would agree that what we are seeing does more align with Mussolini style fascism (as we don't have a religious body involved yet). And instead of a dictator, I'd say that we're closer to an oligarchy.

None of it makes me comfortable at all. Unfortunately, our primal bent towards revenge has put me in a position to believe that swapping the D for R will just mean the same grind from a different tribe. No one on any side has yet to provide me with a reasonable, rational reason why I would consider providing them with my consent to govern.
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I would disagree on Mussolini. What we are seeing, from struggle sessions, cancel culture and the hive mind is Maoism.

The problem is that we are used to looking at Westernized models of communism (AKA soviet) and other forms of socialist fascism (Nazis, etc). We spent a whole cold war absorbed with it. But the soviet/Marxist model of socialism is rather different than the eastern model utilized by Mao Zedong. This is interesting considering that it is the most successful one still extant today.

Much of Saul Alinsky and others of similar ilk base most of their tactics and even philosophies off of Mao, who literally wrote the book on guerilla warfare. When you read the history of the cultural revolution, the great leap forward, etc, it is like seeing a window into our own time.

If you wish to know the desired outcome of most every progressive today, look at China and the way it rules. Now sure they would want different moral policies, transexualism, etc but look at the method by which the Chinese rule today - a blend of capitalism, socialism and authoritarian government of the connected elite. This is exactly where progressives want to lead us, even if they are ignorant of that.
 
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#604
#604
Gandalf said:
I would disagree on Mussolini. What we are seeing, from struggle sessions, cancel culture and the hive mind is Maoism.

The problem is that we are used to looking at Westernized models of communism (AKA soviet) and other forms of socialist fascism (Nazis, etc). We spent a whole cold war absorbed with it. But the soviet/Marxist model of socialism is rather different than the eastern model utilized by Mao Zedong. This is interesting considering that it is the most successful one still extant today.

Much of Saul Alinsky and others of similar ilk base most of their tactics and even philosophies off of Mao, who literally wrote the book on guerilla warfare. When you read the history of the cultural revolution, the great leap forward, etc, it is like seeing a window into our own time.

If you wish to know the desired outcome of most every progressive today, look at China and the way it rules. Now sure they would want different moral policies, transexualism, etc but look at the method by which the Chinese rule today - a blend of capitalism, socialism and authoritarian government of the connected elite. This is exactly where progressives want to lead us, even if they are ignorant of that.
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Profound statement sir. One of the best posts on here I have ever seen. Authoritarianism is authoritarianism, regardless of some multiple binary labels.
 
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#611
#611
BreatheUT said:
As an example of how ignorant many citizens are today, if you remember in more recent elections many democrat voters were shocked to learn that federal elections aren't won by the sheer number of votes and how the electoral college works. I learned this simple principle in grade school, along with the term naturalization. The method illegal aliens become legal. This term is rarely used when discussing immigration and while some know better, I am guessing others are clueless what it is.
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Why do the effort involved to become a naturalized citizen when its easier to just be here and work under the table. An illegal's kids will be legal citizens just by being born here anyway. Europe and most of the world have fixed the citizenship by birth location, but we just blunder on.
 
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#612
#612
AM64 said:
Why do the effort involved to become a naturalized citizen when its easier to just be here and work under the table. An illegal's kids will be legal citizens just by being born here anyway. Europe and most of the world have fixed the citizenship by birth location, but we just blunder on.
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It's too bad we just smack the hands of the business that knowingly employ the undocumented. "Uh uh, bad Tyson Foods! Bad Sanderson Farms! Here's your negligible fine; now don't do it again. /Wink"

These people cross the border either having been lied to about the work or knowing it's waiting for them from serial violator employers. Are we afraid of actually punishing the businesses creating the demand?

And yes; we need to fix birth citizenship.
 
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#613
#613
#614
#614
AshG said:
It's too bad we just smack the hands of the business that knowingly employ the undocumented. "Uh uh, bad Tyson Foods! Bad Sanderson Farms! Here's your negligible fine; now don't do it again. /Wink"

These people cross the border either having been lied to about the work or knowing it's waiting for them from serial violator employers. Are we afraid of actually punishing the businesses creating the demand?

And yes; we need to fix birth citizenship.
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One huge problem is that we (at least the government that "represents" us) refuses to get serious about non violent crime - I choose that over white collar because it's a broader definition. Either way it isn't victimless crime by any stretch of the imagination. The problem you pointed out is twofold - either business looking the other way and refusing to obey laws because it's just a corporate fine (cost of doing business) and no individual pays; or it is identity theft, the businesses were duped, and some poor stiff spends time and money trying to be himself again. Either way, some individual needs to be held accountable or it never ends. Same principle goes for companies who lose private data to hackers. Penalize a responsible individual and they either fix the issue (at least tighten it up), or they decide they didn't need your data anyway.
 
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#615
#615
OHvol40 said:
Why? Because Trump and the Trumpettes said it didn’t happen? Color me shocked lol

AP FACT CHECK: Trump denies tear gas use despite evidence

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/05/reverse-fact-check-trump-his-supporters-about-tear-gas-falls-apart/?outputType=amp

VERIFY: Did police tear gas protesters for Trump walk to church? | wusa9.com

A semantics argument over what constitutes tear gas? Haha give me a break with that nonsense.
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Hi. You must be new here. Let me break this to you gently:

  1. When a poster brings up Trump in a positive light, scroll on. It is a trap.
  2. Providing any critical analysis or evidence of wrongdoing by Trump will immediately have you labeled a stupid socialist Marxist communist snowflake leftist lib with TDS. Even if you have never voted D in your life.
  3. Any links to sites other than RedState, Brietbart, Conservative Treehouse, Rumble, or Telegram will be labeled leftist filth and/or MSM within minutes.
  4. All academic research is inherently bad.
Good luck, and may God have mercy on your soul.
 
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#616
#616
AshG said:
Hi. You must be new here. Let me break this to you gently:

  1. When a poster brings up Trump in a positive light, scroll on. It is a trap.
  2. Providing any critical analysis or evidence of wrongdoing by Trump will immediately have you labeled a stupid socialist Marxist communist snowflake leftist lib with TDS. Even if you have never voted D in your life.
  3. Any links to sites other than RedState, Brietbart, Conservative Treehouse, Rumble, or Telegram will be labeled leftist filth and/or MSM within minutes.
  4. All academic research is inherently bad.
Good luck, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Lol, thanks. I’m acutely aware of the derangement many here suffer from. Popping in every once in a while to peel back that curtain is oddly cathartic. It makes me feel “normal”
 
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#617
#617
AM64 said:
One huge problem is that we (at least the government that "represents" us) refuses to get serious about non violent crime - I choose that over white collar because it's a broader definition. Either way it isn't victimless crime by any stretch of the imagination. The problem you pointed out is twofold - either business looking the other way and refusing to obey laws because it's just a corporate fine (cost of doing business) and no individual pays; or it is identity theft, the businesses were duped, and some poor stiff spends time and money trying to be himself again. Either way, some individual needs to be held accountable or it never ends. Same principle goes for companies who lose private data to hackers. Penalize a responsible individual and they either fix the issue (at least tighten it up), or they decide they didn't need your data anyway.
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The situation in southern Mississippi when I lived there was heartbreaking.

These undocumented workers had all paid $50 each to a "representative" of Sanderson Farms to complete their work visa paperwork for them. He assured them they were allowed to work while awaiting their paperwork. Months went by with no reply, so they tucked their heads and went on.

When the raid came, Sanderson Farms officials said that the headhunter had assured them that all of the workers were properly credentialed so they never checked; it was all this guy's fault. And no one knows how to get in touch with him, so...

Because Sanderson Farms had a patsy, they got off with a smack on the hand and more frequent ICE visits. Because the undocumented workers couldn't produce paperwork they believed they had legally paid for, they and their families were rounded up for deportation. Except several of the kids, who had birthright citizenship. Dear God, the hell they went through. Several were in the school my wife worked at. I bet some of them are still bouncing around foster care.

Anyway, moral of the story: the bigger your business, the less likely it will deal with actual penalties
 
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#618
#618
AshG said:
The situation in southern Mississippi when I lived there was heartbreaking.

These undocumented workers had all paid $50 each to a "representative" of Sanderson Farms to complete their work visa paperwork for them. He assured them they were allowed to work while awaiting their paperwork. Months went by with no reply, so they tucked their heads and went on.

When the raid came, Sanderson Farms officials said that the headhunter had assured them that all of the workers were properly credentialed so they never checked; it was all this guy's fault. And no one knows how to get in touch with him, so...

Because Sanderson Farms had a patsy, they got off with a smack on the hand and more frequent ICE visits. Because the undocumented workers couldn't produce paperwork they believed they had legally paid for, they and their families were rounded up for deportation. Except several of the kids, who had birthright citizenship. Dear God, the hell they went through. Several were in the school my wife worked at. I bet some of them are still bouncing around foster care.

Anyway, moral of the story: the bigger your business, the less likely it will deal with actual penalties
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Easy fix. Shut the border down and this doesn’t happen.
 
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#621
#621
AshG said:
The situation in southern Mississippi when I lived there was heartbreaking.

These undocumented workers had all paid $50 each to a "representative" of Sanderson Farms to complete their work visa paperwork for them. He assured them they were allowed to work while awaiting their paperwork. Months went by with no reply, so they tucked their heads and went on.

When the raid came, Sanderson Farms officials said that the headhunter had assured them that all of the workers were properly credentialed so they never checked; it was all this guy's fault. And no one knows how to get in touch with him, so...

Because Sanderson Farms had a patsy, they got off with a smack on the hand and more frequent ICE visits. Because the undocumented workers couldn't produce paperwork they believed they had legally paid for, they and their families were rounded up for deportation. Except several of the kids, who had birthright citizenship. Dear God, the hell they went through. Several were in the school my wife worked at. I bet some of them are still bouncing around foster care.

Anyway, moral of the story: the bigger your business, the less likely it will deal with actual penalties
Click to expand...

For corporations when you have lots of people to spread blame and can't pin a real fine or prison term on a person then it's that old thing "when everybody is in charge nobody is in charge" - so no reason to change - just a cost of doing business except for the illegals in this case. Sorry I don't buy the "undocumented" thing. It's not like somebody at the border failed to process or provide them with paperwork - these people knowingly avoided the legal process to get here. However, I still have a major problem with people who take advantage of them - and possibly lured them here in the first place.
 
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#623
#623
AM64 said:
For corporations when you have lots of people to spread blame and can't pin a real fine or prison term on a person then it's that old thing "when everybody is in charge nobody is in charge" - so no reason to change - just a cost of doing business except for the illegals in this case. Sorry I don't buy the "undocumented" thing. It's not like somebody at the border failed to process or provide them with paperwork - these people knowingly avoided the legal process to get here. However, I still have a major problem with people who take advantage of them - and possibly lured them here in the first place.
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Yes, there's definitely blame for those who came in without the proper paperwork. Desperation does crazy things to people's moral compasses.
 
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#624
#624
AshG said:
Yes, there's definitely blame for those who came in without the proper paperwork. Desperation does crazy things to people's moral compasses.
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I'm not convinced it's desperation as much as recruitment, and "charitable" organizations are likely up to their eyeballs in it.
 
#625
#625
AM64 said:
I'm not convinced it's desperation as much as recruitment, and "charitable" organizations are likely up to their eyeballs in it.
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What I do know is that this ish makes my uncle's life much harder. He has a tree nursery outside Gruetli-Laager and the paperwork to do things the right way is becoming more and more complex for his seasonal workers. I wouldn't be surprised if he retires and sells the business soon.
 
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